Rhino.Inside for Vectorworks

[elepp]

Now that Rhino 7 was released, they introduced Rhino.Inside. It's a live link between Rhino and another software. There are plenty of advantageous uses cases for having this also in Vectorworks. We need better operability with other software packages and I am not talking import/export features. The data needs to be synced live to make important decisions on the fly.

 

Thnx!

[JuanP]

@elepp We looked into Rhino Inside last year. However, we didn’t get much traction from our customers at that point. We will be happy to hear more about other use cases for this improvement.

 

thanks for bringing this up.

[elepp]

6 minutes ago, JuanP said:

@elepp We looked into Rhino Inside last year. However, we didn’t get much traction from our customers at that point. We will be happy to hear more about other use cases for this improvement.

 

thanks for bringing this up.

Hi @JuanP,

 

thanks for the quick reply. With theses features it's like in the movie Fields of Dreams: If you build it, they will come. People, who are already familiar with rhino and grasshopper, will flock more likely to programms that offer this option. Asking existing users for feedback, will not be helpful. You should survey rhino users how likely they would be to buy Vectorworks with rhino.inside available.

I know a few architects who learned rhino+grasshopper in university. Later they joined architecture firms and brought their knowledge of these tools with them. If they had to weigh in on which bim software to use, they naturally gravitated towards Archicad and Revit. Vectorworks is not considered an option.

 

Still many universities in Germany are teaching rhino+grasshopper and are producing highly skilled workers of tomorrow. They will not consider our office, if we can't offer them this. It is difficult as is finding skilled Vectorworks users from university, but this makes it even harder.

 

 

[Jeff Prince]

2 hours ago, JuanP said:

@elepp We looked into Rhino Inside last year. However, we didn’t get much traction from our customers at that point. We will be happy to hear more about other use cases for this improvement.

 

thanks for bringing this up.

@JuanP As a customer, I do not recall ever being asked of my opinion on the utility of having Rhino/Vectorworks connectivity.

 

1 hour ago, elepp said:

Asking existing users for feedback, will not be helpful.

 

Still many universities in Germany are teaching rhino+grasshopper and are producing highly skilled workers of tomorrow. They will not consider our office, if we can't offer them this. It is difficult as is finding skilled Vectorworks users from university, but this makes it even harder.

@elepp

Wow, those are some strong opinions.  As a former Rhino  and current Vectorworks user, I couldn't disagree more.

Maybe things are different in Germany, but while working in the US, UK, and Middle East I did not find the tools to be as important as the professional skills I was employed to use.  Talent can learn tools.  It is not uncommon to hire an architect, engineer, or designer who has no knowledge of a particular software package, especially if the firm has proprietary processes or software implementations.  However, it's unlikely that a CAD/BIM operator would be hired without knowledge of the tools.  Having your ability to design or document tied to a single workflow or software is a good recipe for becoming unemployable in my opinion.  Who knows what software or processes will be in fashion in 10 years, but it shouldn't affect one's ability to design.

 

All that said, it would be nice to have Rhino/Vectorworks connectivity 🙂

[elepp]

@jeff prince Appreciate your input. I agree that professional skills are very important. My view might be a little skewed by my negativ experience in that regard.

[axhake]

Yes, it would be nice to have "Rhino.Inside for Vectorworks" but as we can't even import / export the latest Rhino file format (which is now at v7) we need that updating before we can dream of having "Rhino inside"...

[Jeff Prince]

21 minutes ago, axhake said:

Yes, it would be nice to have "Rhino.Inside for Vectorworks" but as we can't even import / export the latest Rhino file format (which is now at v7) we need that updating before we can dream of having "Rhino inside"...

 

Yes, one can dream....

Vectorworks can't even import ArchiCAD, and they are owned by the same company 😞

C4D models can not be imported.

Point cloud files still aren't imported correctly.

OBJ import still appears to have issues compared to Blender and Meshlab.

3D assets imported from fbx...

[axhake]

Still dreaming... sorry forgot... I'm using AECOsim at the moment

[elepp]

We are working on a project at the moment where rhino.inside would be a huge help. We are planning a roof structure with etfe cushions. There are already plenty of resources for grasshopper regarding this. The structural engineer on this project also uses rhino and grasshopper. The whole collaboration on a parametric  structure would be much easier that way. We are reaching the limits of what is possible in Vectorworks in terms of 3D-Modeling capabilities. It's very frustrating. 😞

[Todd Drucker]

@JuanP@sbarrett I also am interested in this feature. Very interested.

 

Marionette is a powerful tool to control Vectorwork's function, however, everyone who has graduated architecture school in the last 10 years has had exposure to Grasshopper. At my practice, we have one license of rhino, and young employees want to use these tools to design... but the process is segmented, slow and not practical for teams working on project with different levels of experience. 

 

I would like to continue using Vectorworks for my entire professional career, however, if these functions won't be adapted into future service packs, I will convert to Revit. 

 

I have grown to love the power of Vectorworks and the collaboration it offers.... especially as a BIM tool.... and all that I request is that Vectorworks keeps working to match competition's functionality. 

 

.....

 

Other powerful tools are Hypar and Cove.Tool...and both of these developers are working on functionality with Vectorworks. Grasshopper does not have to exist within the Vectorworks platform as Marrionette is the tool to control workflow... however... I would really like to see Rhino.Inside cooperate with Vectorworks so designers of all ages can use tools they are comfortable with and advance digital production!

 

 

https://hypar.io/workflows

https://www.cove.tools/

 

 

[ms.stationmiddle]

Here is Rhino community discourse  about rhino inside and Vectorworks for your reference, I’m also wish it will see in future.

 

https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/rhinoinside-for-vectorworks/91545

[Brendan Gray]

Add my name to the list of those wishing for better Rhino support/integration. I have a handful of agency clients who use it exclusively and collaboration is a real challenge.  Importing giant files with no layer/class structure is of limited use. 

[Andy Broomell]

On 1/14/2021 at 9:40 AM, jeff prince said:

As a customer, I do not recall ever being asked of my opinion on the utility of having Rhino/Vectorworks connectivity.

 

Same.

 

@JuanP - In the film industry, the three software packages that are most commonly used for set design drafting are SketchUp, Vectorworks, and Rhino. It's common for an art department to have a mix of folks each working in their program of choice simultaneously. We often have to reference each other's work, or even completely take over projects started by someone else despite working in different software.

 

I'm not familiar with what "Rhino.Inside" has to offer specifically, but having better Rhino connectivity would be AWESOME for set designers. And when it comes to importing, Rhino and SketchUp should ideally have just as much granular control as DWG has.

[Tobias Kern]

Hi,

 

Rhino.inside would be very welcome!

The tools for Nurbs are very limited in VW.

 

Greetings

obi

[suf]

grasshopper is very important tool，marionette is far behind，please add grasshopper into VW !!!

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

I think your wishes were granted ten or more years ago.  If I recall from speaking with Vectorworks during that period, the 3D NURBS tool palette and the 3D power pack were purchased from Rhino.  They seem to have forgotten the manuals.

 

I joined the forum a few months ago for the specific purpose of getting the 3D NURBS modelling suit better known.  The car image below was modelled in Vectorworks eight years ago and rendered in C4D., but it could be printed, etc.  It is all NURBS based.  There is a 20 minute video showing this car modelled in real time. 

 

Rhino does Jewelry well as they have some specific tools for this.  The image below the Car is a mans ring, it could be printed.  The main body of the  ring was create in Vectorworks using only four curves. 

 

Below that image is a jet fighter.  AVRO Arrow.  Part of if is solid modelling, part of it is surface modelling and part is planar extrusions.  This is something unique to Vectorworks (I think), but It was not by design.

 

I have been sharing these and other images with Rhino tech support for discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rDesign]

12 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

I think your wishes were granted ten or more years ago.  If I recall from speaking with Vectorworks during that period, the 3D NURBS tool palette and the 3D power pack were purchased from Rhino.

Perhaps as far as 3D NURBS and Rhino are concerned, you may be correct — but Rhino with the Grasshopper plug-in can do so much more than just the 3D modeling that your statement is focusing on.
 

For example, take a look at the Ladybug environmental analysis tools plug-in for Grasshopper. Perhaps with a lot of work you could replicate some of these Ladybug functions with Marionette, but you would be hard pressed to achieve them all —  like graphically showing the percent of floor area in direct sun.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

24 minutes ago, rDesign said:

For example, take a look at the Ladybug environmental analysis tools plug-in for Grasshopper. Perhaps with a lot of work you could replicate some of these Ladybug functions with Marionette, but you would be hard pressed to achieve them all —  like graphically showing the percent of floor area in direct sun.

I Just watched the Ladybug tutorial and it was amazing.  So glad I am retired, probably could not grasp this technology, but I guess I am not an architect, so probably would not have to.

I don't know what you do.  Would you use this functionality?  It seems to push the divide between the "have skills and have no skills" even further considering that most users are sill in 2D.  Having said that, do you need to design in 3D to use Ladybug.

 

Thanks for schooling me up on new technology.   I have been retired for nearly twenty years, live out in the boonies, and don't don't go to the "big smoke" much anymore.

 

regards....

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by VIRTUALENVIRONS

[Jeff Prince]

1 hour ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

It seems to push the divide between the "have skills and have no skills" even further considering that most users are sill in 2D.

 

I'm curious, what are you basing this "most users are in 2D" statement on?

 

I was in manufacturing engineering over 25 years ago, and 3D was required for I.D. and Mech to get a job in industry... Pro/E and Catia were the things to know if you wanted a real job in manufacturing. Computer modeling, CAM, 3D printing, CNC, and EDM were mature and robust tools at that point.

 

The AEC industry was slow to adopt 3D, but that was even common in big companies and government such as Federal Highways and state DOTs in the mid 90's.  Even sole proprietor architects who plan on being in business for the next 10+ years have largely moved to Revit or similar.  Ironically, BIM has its foundation in Pro/E and Catia, if you want to know the future of Architecture, look back 30 years at the history of manufacturing.

 

The kids coming out of school for the past decade are largely taught Rhino and Sketchup as a primary design tool.  2D has pretty much gone the way of the Diazo machine, and that seemed to happen overnight.  Landscape Architects and Interior Designers are usually the very last to embrace technology, and even we have slowly been incorporating BIM and 3D into the majority of our work.  The only work product that seems safe to stay in 2D is the illustrative sketch, but even that is threatened by Procreate and such amongst traditionalist.

 

2 hours ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

I think your wishes were granted ten or more years ago.  If I recall from speaking with Vectorworks during that period, the 3D NURBS tool palette and the 3D power pack were purchased from Rhino.  They seem to have forgotten the manuals.

 

You are a self proclaimed "3D NURBS Modeling Specialist" who has worked for Vectorworks, yet you do not know where Vectorwork's modeling kernels and tools come from?  I was under the impression that everything Rhino and Vectorworks uses was licensed from SMLib and Siemens with regard to NURBS and Solids.  I could be totally wrong on that though.

 

If Vectorworks bought their NURBS core from Rhino, why does Vectorworks drive like an old jalopy held together by baling wire and duct tape compared to the highly tuned Rhino 😉

 

I'm 100% certain there will be another great disruption to how AEC projects are digitally delivered within the next decade, especially if there is another global recession.  What we are doing today will be archaic by then.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Hi Jeff,

37 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

 

I'm curious, what are you basing this "most users are in 2D" statement on?

 

 

Well "most" did not mean you and some of the others, but in general most is true.  I don't want to get on this point only.  BTW, nice resume.  I have no doubt you are good at what you do.

I am a "Self Proclaimed Modelling Specialist" as you put it, same way that you are a self proclaimed Landscape Architect.  I don't doubt your skills.  I think you have seen enough of mine that you don't doubt mine either.  It is what we are.

 

My pedigree briefly, did one of three concept designs for Canada's part in the International Space Station on a drafting board.  This was a 3D technical illustration.  Years later I worked with a women from the Godard Space Centre to image a crater from Mars In 3D.  Presented this work in Las Angelas in ~1990.  Used Vectorworks or MiniCAD (not sure) to create the geometry with the help of a MIT math phd.  I bench marked the Mac 2 CI in 3D design around the same time for Computer Graphics World Magazine.  I became MiniCAD's first 3D beta tester when I modelled an F-16 ~40 years ago in MiniCAD.  (Did you know there was a NURBS 3D component to MiniCad).  

I have never paid in all that time for a MiniCad/Vectorworks licence.

I worked for the National Research Council Canada (Canada's main research Arm).  Published a paper on 3D design, led three National Architectural Historical 3D reconstructions.  These were big reconstructions, see below.  I wrote the first Paper chapter on Animation for Vectorworks.  I think they still use some of the terminology I used.  

The Mother Ship.  We talked about this. I worked with a body that was between Vectorworks and C4D (Nemetschek) in Germany to implement the Send to C4D command.  Wrote tutorials on how they worked for Cineversity.  Then at 52.....I retired.

 

The First Fort Henry

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by VIRTUALENVIRONS

[Jeff Prince]

38 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

My pedigree briefly...

 

What a legend, we are so lucky to have a humble expert like you Paul.

 

That being said, this thread is about Rhino inside Vectorworks, not a measuring contest.

Edited April 15, 2023 by jeff prince

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

1 hour ago, jeff prince said:

If Vectorworks bought their NURBS core from Rhino, why does Vectorworks drive like an old jalopy held together by baling wire and duct tape compared to the highly tuned Rhino 😉

Hi Jeff,

So, it's OK for you to have credentials, but not me.  I read your bio and thought it was cool.  You just can't help yourself can you.

 

You had so many question, I could not answer them in one post.  I am very glad you asked this question.  I have been waiting for it since I joined the forum.

 

Rhino wants you to know that it is a powerful 3D NURBS modeller.  That is where they make their money.  It is what they do.

 

Vectorworks makes its money in Architecture and Landscape design.  The NURBS module is just there for people to play with.  But, does this look like an old Jalopy.

 

Got to sigh off for the night, but there is always tomorrow.

 

Kind regards....

 

 

[Jeff Prince]

8 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

So, it's OK for you to have credentials, but not me.  I read your bio and thought it was cool.  You just can't help yourself can you.

 

Good grief, you are insufferable.

Where are these credentials and bio of mine you read, I might be interested in reading it too.

 

People on this thread are interested in Rhino.inside for various reasons.

I doubt anyone wants the thread cluttered with our unrelated banter.

I don't know why I keep falling for this, it must be what training a chatbot feels like.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Because you can’t help yourself…..just sayin

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

1 hour ago, jeff prince said:

I was in manufacturing engineering over 25 years ago, and 3D was required for I.D. and Mech to get a job in industry... Pro/E and Catia were the things to know if you wanted a real job in manufacturing. Computer modeling, CAM, 3D printing, CNC, and EDM were mature and robust tools at that point.

 

So Jeff, your bio that you did not post.  

 

I know that by me being here rains on your parade.  You have many lanes, be happy.  I am only going to be here for a short period of time. Just to post enough NURBS material so others, perhaps like yourself will start experimenting with NURBS modelling and get this Rhino thing our of your heads.   Then I will be gone and you can dispense 3D knowledge to your hearts content.

 

Now, having wine with my wife watching the swans go by.  Suggest you do the same before you blow a gasket.....without the swans.

[Claes Lundstrom]

14 hours ago, jeff prince said:

 

I'm curious, what are you basing this "most users are in 2D" statement on?

 

I was in manufacturing engineering over 25 years ago, and 3D was required for I.D. and Mech to get a job in industry... Pro/E and Catia were the things to know if you wanted a real job in manufacturing. Computer modeling, CAM, 3D printing, CNC, and EDM were mature and robust tools at that point.

 

The AEC industry was slow to adopt 3D, but that was even common in big companies and government such as Federal Highways and state DOTs in the mid 90's.  Even sole proprietor architects who plan on being in business for the next 10+ years have largely moved to Revit or similar.  Ironically, BIM has its foundation in Pro/E and Catia, if you want to know the future of Architecture, look back 30 years at the history of manufacturing.

 

The kids coming out of school for the past decade are largely taught Rhino and Sketchup as a primary design tool.  2D has pretty much gone the way of the Diazo machine, and that seemed to happen overnight.  Landscape Architects and Interior Designers are usually the very last to embrace technology, and even we have slowly been incorporating BIM and 3D into the majority of our work.  The only work product that seems safe to stay in 2D is the illustrative sketch, but even that is threatened by Procreate and such amongst traditionalist.

 

 

You are a self proclaimed "3D NURBS Modeling Specialist" who has worked for Vectorworks, yet you do not know where Vectorwork's modeling kernels and tools come from?  I was under the impression that everything Rhino and Vectorworks uses was licensed from SMLib and Siemens with regard to NURBS and Solids.  I could be totally wrong on that though.

 

If Vectorworks bought their NURBS core from Rhino, why does Vectorworks drive like an old jalopy held together by baling wire and duct tape compared to the highly tuned Rhino 😉

 

I'm 100% certain there will be another great disruption to how AEC projects are digitally delivered within the next decade, especially if there is another global recession.  What we are doing today will be archaic by then.

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Jeff. Vectorworks needs a serious update of its NURBS abilities. It hasn't evolved much since it first occurred in Vectorworks 9. Basics like for example that you can only work on one object at the time, and you that can't nudge control points, like you can with mesh objects, makes it hard and time consuming to do serious work with it. I don't think the Siemens Parasolids is to blame either, as other programs based on Siemens Parasolids can indeed do it. That's why I pretty much never do NURBS modeling in VW. I import it all if required (though not from Rhino, so don't have an opinion on that subject).