The inability to Group Design Layers is a Major FLAW in Vectorworks

[pjs8888]

I find it unbelievable that in this day and age Vectorworks still does not allow grouping of Design Layers!!

Has anyone working on the development of this application actually used it? 

 

We need this ASAP. The software, in my opinion, is cumbersome at best without this standard functionality.

Fix this soon.... PLEASE!!!

 

 

 

 

[Pat Stanford]

Please explain what you mean.  I do not understand what you want "grouped" design layers to do.

[Christiaan]

For sure is the same wish as these:

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/42924-design-layer-and-sheet-layer-hierarchy/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/56819-organising-grouping-sheet-and-design-layers/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/106611-grouping-of-layers-please/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/55984-separate-sheet-layers-and-design-layers-in-pull-down-menus/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/102316-nested-layers-wanted/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/87753-group-layerssheets-and-viewports/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/66960-group-layers-like-in-photoshop/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/58271-organisation-design-layers-saved-views-sheet-layers-viewports/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/16256-ability-to-group-layerssheet-layers-like-classes/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/60380-collapsable-sheet-and-layer-folders/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/43404-better-layer-orginization/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/96185-design-layer-groups/

 

[spettitt]

Out of curiosity, do you use any other CAD platforms with that functionality? If so, which?

 

I agree it would be helpful to be able to put all my 'schematic' or 'rigging' layers in to a group in the list, such that I can collapse them and make the list easier to navigate, but I've worked on some enormous files and the flat list of layers has never stopped me doing anything.

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, spettitt said:

but I've worked on some enormous files and the flat list of layers has never stopped me doing anything.

 

plus we can use layer filters

[Christiaan]

Layer Filters is probably the answer to this problem. Would be good to have somebody at VW comment on this and put it to rest if that's the case.

[Tom W.]

I still think collapsable/expandable groups of layers (like classes) would be no bad thing but not to the extent that the software is unusable without it. I'd be much more interested in having extra functionality for sheet layers (+ saved views + class filters) which has been discussed elsewhere, no doubt in some of those linked threads.

[Christiaan]

21 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

I still think collapsable/expandable groups of layers (like classes) would be no bad thing

How would you want to see it work?

 

Unlike Classes (which a self-organising based on the '-' divider) layers would need a new UI element that we can create and drop layers into it, manually grouping them.

[line-weight]

I've never used layer filters but this thread has made me think maybe I should.

 

If I want to quickly make a bunch of existing sheet layers choosable via a filter, I need to give them all a certain tag and then filter by that tag, is that right?

 

If we were to be able to "group" layers then I don't think it can work like classes with '-' separators in the titles, because those titles may well be used within title blocks, where you want to be free to name as you wish.

[Tom W.]

29 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

How would you want to see it work?

 

Unlike Classes (which a self-organising based on the '-' divider) layers would need a new UI element that we can create and drop layers into it, manually grouping them.

 

Hmm not sure I think that's a question for @pjs8888 + others who've requested it...

 

It's low on list of priorities for me. I guess I imagined it'd work similar to classes by including a hyphen like you say but hadn't really thought it through... 

[Tom W.]

1 minute ago, line-weight said:

I need to give them all a certain tag and then filter by that tag, is that right?

 

No you can filter on all sorts of other criteria as well. Layer name being the simplest + most obvious. Depending on how you name them of course

[line-weight]

41 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

No you can filter on all sorts of other criteria as well. Layer name being the simplest + most obvious. Depending on how you name them of course

I mean if the layer names don't lend themselves to filtering - then you have to use tags or suchlike. I can't bulk-select a bunch of layers and put them within a filter for example.

 

Usually I'll have a load of sheet layers that have a descriptive title (like "First Floor GA" or "Window Schedule") and a three digit sheet number. These are the sheets that get issued for a tender issue or construction issue or whatever. It would often be useful just to see them (and exclude all the other sheet layers I might have set up) but they don't necessarily have anything in common that makes it easy to filer them out.

[Tom W.]

1 minute ago, line-weight said:

I mean if the layer names don't lend themselves to filtering - then you have to use tags or suchlike. I can't bulk-select a bunch of layers and put them within a filter for example.

 

Usually I'll have a load of sheet layers that have a descriptive title (like "First Floor GA" or "Window Schedule") and a three digit sheet number. These are the sheets that get issued for a tender issue or construction issue or whatever. It would often be useful just to see them (and exclude all the other sheet layers I might have set up) but they don't necessarily have anything in common that makes it easy to filer them out.

 

Ah yes I mean Design Layers. I have projects with several different buildings in + they all have their own sets of layers, the building they relate to in each case being referenced in the layer name, so it is very easy to create filters for each building to quickly see those layers only when I want to work on a particular building + not have to scroll through a long list of layers relating to however many different buildings.

 

But there are only a couple of projects I've wanted or needed to do this.

 

I hadn't thought to use layer filters on Sheet Layers. Yes for me too in most projects I would really like to be able to better organise my sheets to more easily differentiate between them but I don't think filters is the tool for that. I personally would like to be able to highlight sheet layers in different colours so that at a glance I can see which are finished + ready to be issued, which I am still working on, which are empty + can be ignored (I have blank sheets in my template file), which contain 'working viewports' + will never be for issuing, etc. This has been discussed elsewhere.

 

Assigning tags is a bit long-winded + once done they are a bit inconspicuous plus I don't necessarily want to completely hide certain groups of sheets, just be able to more easily differentiate between them in a list.

 

Having said that given the way the UI has gone maybe I need to be thinking in terms of different shades of grey 🙂

[line-weight]

Seeing as "sets" of sheet layers already exists in the "Publish" context perhaps that could simply be expanded to be usable for general file navigation/organisation.

[pjs8888]

Yes 

to answer Spetit....

Rhino for one. Cinema 4D for another...I am pretty sure 3D Studio Max and Maya as well

Allows grouping  layers.

The same way you can group layers in Photoshop.... 

I want to have individual elements on their own layers and to group those layers so that I can move, change visibilities, etc for the group of layers.

Perhaps there is a way within Vectorworks that I am not seeing.....I am migrating back to Vectorworks from Rhino.....

If not please make it so..... like I would love you if you made it so now....today... please....

What I am seeing is that you can group elements together but all must reside on the same layer...

 

I also want to be able to change the layer of an element without having to cut it and paste it into a new one.  Another functionality of Rhino which is really good.... A "move to layer" operation.... please point me to it if it is already there.....

 

Another Rhino feature that I miss is when you hover over a number of drawn elements it will show all elements in a little drop down and you can choose which you are intending to select.... 

 

Thanks for all of the feedback and thoughts...

 

P

 

 

 

[markdd]

2 hours ago, pjs8888 said:

also want to be able to change the layer of an element without having to cut it and paste it into a new one.  Another functionality of Rhino which is really good.... A "move to layer" operation.... please point me to it if it is already there.....

This is possible from the Layers dropdown menu in the Object Information Palette.

[markdd]

2 hours ago, pjs8888 said:

Another Rhino feature that I miss is when you hover over a number of drawn elements it will show all elements in a little drop down and you can choose which you are intending to select.... 

there is a similar feature called coincident selection. If objects are coincident, then an asterisk appears at the cursor. Press the J key and click and a menu will open with a list you can choose from. This also has a right-click command as well. 

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, markdd said:

This is possible from the Layers dropdown menu in the Object Information Palette.

 

Or right-click on the Layer in the Navigation Palette + select 'Assign To Selection'.

[Christiaan]

53 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Or right-click on the Layer in the Navigation Palette + select 'Assign To Selection'.

That's a new one for me, ta!

[Matt Overton]

On 11/27/2023 at 7:33 PM, Christiaan said:

For sure is the same wish as these:

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/42924-design-layer-and-sheet-layer-hierarchy/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/56819-organising-grouping-sheet-and-design-layers/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/106611-grouping-of-layers-please/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/55984-separate-sheet-layers-and-design-layers-in-pull-down-menus/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/102316-nested-layers-wanted/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/87753-group-layerssheets-and-viewports/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/66960-group-layers-like-in-photoshop/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/58271-organisation-design-layers-saved-views-sheet-layers-viewports/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/16256-ability-to-group-layerssheet-layers-like-classes/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/60380-collapsable-sheet-and-layer-folders/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/43404-better-layer-orginization/

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/96185-design-layer-groups/

 

Is 2007 the oldest?

As much as a number of items around layers needs overhauling 17years with no action is about 7years longer than most popular Wishlist items take. Might be a sign of disinterest from the devs. 

[Christiaan]

Ha, yeah, I think mine in 2007 is the oldest.

[_James]

I would have thought that filters were a feature added to try to tackle this request in a different way as it was likely too time intensive/would have unintended consequences if done in ways that have been suggested here.

 

I would also like to see this functionality added. Particularly at an early stage we create lots of design layers with different options and end up making blank layers with titles like '- - - - - - - Option 1 - - - - - -' to help make the navigation palette more legible. Surely this workflow can be improved upon!

 

In the image below all of the layers could be made into 6 groups.

 

[pjs8888]

8 hours ago, markdd said:

This is possible from the Layers dropdown menu in the Object Information Palette.

Awesome 

I hadnt found this command .... 

Thanks 

[Matt Overton]

10 hours ago, _James said:

I would have thought that filters were a feature added to try to tackle this request in a different way as it was likely too time intensive/would have unintended consequences if done in ways that have been suggested here.

I would have thought the consequences were already ready there and needed to be dealt with due to IFC mapping. There is currently no simple way as part of our core workflow to allow us to annotate how we want them dealt with.   The new model of how things should relate is defined. How we make it useful is up to us if we have an interface that makes that information available in a generally useful way. This model would seem to translate to a lot of things, not just Architecture. 

 

https://ifc43-docs.standards.buildingsmart.org/IFC/RELEASE/IFC4x3/HTML/lexical/IfcBuildingStorey.htm

 

If Filters were meant to be the answer, then firstly, that should have been said so it could be tested to see if it meets the brief.

Secondly, they should have been upgraded to allow summaries that group the items in the interface by the same types as filters act on. allowing filters to be a more fluid interface by folding in groups in the summary that don't meet the filter requirements at the time. 

 

Edit to add:

A nice visual interface could make assignments far easier and more direct as well. We could drag a layer from one summary group to another, the system would then apply the right data to the object to make that true. 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Matt Overton
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[pjs8888]

So maybe you all have a workaround.... I am a scenic designer. I have multiple iterations of a design in different locations in a venue. I normally would have all elements on their own layers and grouped. (Which the developers of Vectorworks seem to think is  un-necessary.) I could then duplicate each group, retaining that heirarchy and then move the entire design into each potential location.....Once agreed upon I can then tweek the design from that placement. 

As it is. I have had to copy all elements to one layer... to move them together....Which means I no longer am able to work on each piece individually..... Am I missing something in the Vectorworks workflow??? 

 

Thanks for your insights!!

P

 

[line-weight]

6 hours ago, pjs8888 said:

So maybe you all have a workaround.... I am a scenic designer. I have multiple iterations of a design in different locations in a venue. I normally would have all elements on their own layers and grouped. (Which the developers of Vectorworks seem to think is  un-necessary.) I could then duplicate each group, retaining that heirarchy and then move the entire design into each potential location.....Once agreed upon I can then tweek the design from that placement. 

As it is. I have had to copy all elements to one layer... to move them together....Which means I no longer am able to work on each piece individually..... Am I missing something in the Vectorworks workflow??? 

 

Thanks for your insights!!

P

 

 

You could turn on all the layers you want to move together, and turn off all other layers. Then turn on all classes (unless there are any objects in classes that you don't want to move). Then do a select-all (or select with marquee depending on whether you want to move everything in those layers. That should select all the objects together and then you should be able to move them all together. You'll have to make sure you have the right class/layer options set up, so that you can select things that aren't in the currently active layer/class:

 

 

 

However, your question also makes me wonder if you are using layers for things that you should really be using classes for. When you say all elements are on their own layers, why are they spread across multiple layers? Or do you mean you have several iterations of a design and each iteration has its own layer?