Jump to content
  • 37

Question

Recommended Posts

  • 2
35 minutes ago, zoomer said:

What are the features you really miss in new stair tool ?
Or is it more the usage of that tool ?

 

It's terrible to use.  It is confining + confusing.  It is hard to understand what you are getting before you click OK.  Causing you to have to jump in and out of the dialog box to tweak.  The old tool was only slightly better in that it let you worry about code issues and it just did the stair thing and did not yell at you every time you tried to enter a value.  "You want 13" risers? Your stairs - I just work here" kind of attitude that was much more pleasant than the by the book stair tool that just shouted 'NO' - even before you were done typing.  

Neither one though is how a modern stair tool should work.  Really both are glorified excel sheets that spit out calculated geometry.  I do not want to fill in excel sheets anymore.  We need a stair tool that is a little more interactive.  Revit and Chief are both better conceptions on how to think about designing a star.  I want to be able to adjust the rise and run graphically.  I want to double click and get a path that I can adjust while still looking at my plan.  I want to zoom in and adjust the nosing like I might with the sub-div.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 1

STAIR TOOL

1. 
Please make Bottom End of Stair (Top Face) using the Treads Material/Class

 

Reason :
If the Stair extends at the Bottom, that Top Face will be at the same Level and beside
the Finish Floor of the Floor.
And that Material will never be the Stair Body Material as it currently is.
More likely that the Finish Floor has the same Material as the Tread Material.

Option :
If possible make an option to lower Z,
so that we may let run the Finish Floor against the 1st Riser,
without coplanar Faces blinking in Renderings

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
  • 1

STAIR TOOL

2. 
Please make that Stair Geometry has correct Face Orientation.
All Face Normals Pointing outward.

 

Problem :
Export FBX/C4D/DXF
Most 3D Polygon Software cares about Face Normals. Flipped Faces will appear as holes in Meshes
and will cause other problems with GI or when further editing geometry like Bevels and such things.

Related :
Problems with Extrude's Geometry in general ? (Original Face Flipped)
(Extrudes, Slabs, Stairs, Windows, Doors, ... and Structural Members)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 1

"Plug-in Styles" would have been brilliant for the Stair Tool but despite the name they seem to be Windows and Doors only.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 1

STAIR TOOL

3. 
Please make better (larger) Stair Preview with standard view controls

 

Reason :
It is hard to understand what you are getting before you click OK.
Causing you to have to jump in and out of the dialog box to tweak.

Option :
Best a live 1:1 Preview with the actual Geometry

 
Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

+1

I'm now beginning to model my own stairs but mostly because I'm using certain configurations a lot and will get better visuals when creating sections. I'll make symbols of them and drop them in to my models, all ready to go.

Vectorworks 2017? Perhaps a much greater emphasis on the architectural side of things?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I couldn't locate anything on the website, so for 2018 I will start the ball rolling once again requesting a new Stair Tool.  Jim, any reasonable expectations of improvement for 2018?  Or hopefully even in a service pack?

Edited by bc
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Roll that ball. 

The stair tool I believe got one upgrade (Improved Error Handling) in 2017, though it was pretty pervasive, this is a sample from the engineering design documentation since it didn't make it into any marketing materials:

"The basic idea of this task is to replace the current alert dialog containing the error message why the calculation had failed by a layout manager dialog – hereafter called error correction dialog - that contains – in addition to the text of the error message – a pull-down menu with several options that will allow a successful calculation of the stair. The user may select one of these options and click "OK". After that, the values of the stair are modified according to the selected option and the stair is recalculated. If the user clicks "Cancel", the stair is reverted to the last successfully calculated stair, as after the alert dialog in Vectorworks 2016 and earlier."

This addresses a pain point, but not the limits on functionality compared to the Custom Stair tool. I don't know about 2018 plans at all yet, we have some large meetings coming up soon that will give us a picture of development direction. Stair is developed by a separate team outside the US, so that development I'm not as privy to as regularly as I am for a lot of other features.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Generally I really like the Stair Tool - Yes !

So we should use that Wish list Threads Up and Down Arrow Feature and put in concrete Feature Wishes.
If this is done by One-Wish-At-A-Time (or Post)
we can up vote to get a nice Feature Priority :)
I think that could help the developers.

 

I'll start one.

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Thanks for voting my feature requests up :)
But I don't think these are the most popular features needed for those who reject that new stair tool.
I have the least problems with stair tool.

I'm not so experienced with the old stair tool.
I just know that you could create unlimited (?) landings between flights and any (?) angles, for example
for landscape stairs.
What are the features you really miss in new stair tool ?
Or is it more the usage of that tool ?

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

The Stair Tool being able to have angles other than 90d at landings is huge for me (the Custom Stair could do this).

Tom's comment about the Custom Stair not yelling at you is right on. With the new Stair, I can get stuck in a loop where a very annoying (and not helpful) alert message is telling me something about needing to input an integer for the number of risers. I yell back that "I'm trying - but you won't let me?!?"

I agree with pretty much everything that Tom said.

Edited by rDesign

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
34 minutes ago, rDesign said:

The Stair Tool being able to have angles other than 90d at landings is huge for me (the Custom Stair could do this).

I think that was a 2016 feature, that should work.

 

34 minutes ago, rDesign said:

The Stair Tool being able to have angles other than 90d at landings is huge for me (the Custom Stair could do this).

Tom's comment about the Custom Stair not yelling at you is right on. With the new Stair, I can get stuck in a loop where a very annoying (and not helpful) alert message is telling me something about needing to input an integer for the number of risers. I yell back that "I'm trying - but you won't let me?!?"

I agree with pretty much everything that Tom said.

That is a 2017 feature.
But I did not yet tried what is yelling now ...
(You shall not have 96 riser on a stair 1 meter high, stupid - or so)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Thanks Zoomer, I'm pretty sure I tried to make a non 90d stair landing with the Stail tool in 2016 but I couldn't figure out how to make it work. Until I try it out again, I'll chalk this one up to user error.

I stand by my comments about the yelling part, I wasn't trying to do anything as crazy as you described. If I can make the alert dialogue happen again I'll post it.

Edited by rDesign

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Yes, I only remembered a video that it should be possible to do non-90 degree.
When I tried to do so later I did not find it. It was quite hidden for me.
But at that time I also realized that you can (and have to) do a lot of "things" in preview window.

Yes, at the beginning it was yelling at me too.
And I think that was also in times when I made no mistake or activated too many locks.
I think these false flags were once reduced.
I had no more big issues with this in parctice since.
As I understand the 2017 yelling feature is thought to give an exactly advice what you did wrong
and how to solve that.

I think one of those beautiful new of Jim's Arch Vids, online since yesterday, will or should deal
with it in detail.

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

So why does this keep getting put off? The interface is entirely tool complicated, is not scalable, and won't allow any customization. For example I need to build a stair that has a platform at the bottom of the run without additional risers in front of the platform. This is a legal configuration in the US, yet the tool won't allow me to configure it as such. This was not the case with the old custom stair tool, which was much more nimble and  yes is still buried in the legacy tool set, but unfortunately will cause your newer version files eventually to corrupt. This module desperately needs to be overhauled, continues to be deferred, and this is not the first complaint about the tool.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I agree that all the stair tools have their limits (and that they can be really frustrating). FWIW I 'm pretty sure the older tool is still there and you can add it to your workspace via the workspace editor...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

P:

I was told by tech support not to rely on the old custom stair tool. I've had two projects (2015 +2016) where I used it and the stairs eventually corrupt, especially if you monkey with them too much. Yes you can add it, but beware.  Clearly there are situations where you need something simple and straight forward and others that get complex (shapes, features, railings etc). The current tool is very cumbersome and slow. 1/2 the time I can't figure out from the overly complex fields to input what to modify. It is not user friendly in the way that the custom stair tool was. Either we need two tools, or one that can be scaled. Doors and windows throughout their careers have maintained clarity and functionality, yet the stairs have not. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I think the new Stair Tool is the way to go.

I don't have much problems with it, of course it could be more ergonomic.

 

The official way with the platform ist to build a custom geometry and start the stair from there.

I think this is the way to go with Plugins in general.

Keep them simple and easy to use, optimize the way you create and add custom parts.

 

Starting from there,

if additional features like your wish of an entry platform or anything else that the older tools had

making sense to be added to the plugin, which I think in that case it does as it is not too complicated

and very common, it should be wished for by users and added to the current stair tool.

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I agree with the original poster and also find that the 'new' stair tool is not only confusing to use, but it is also much less flexible in the kind of stairs you can create with it.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Z:

 

Adding a platform in order to accommodate the lack of functionality of the tool doesn't make sense to me, especially when the older custom tool just worked and did what you asked it to do, and especially if the rise and run has to change. I'm not a fan of workarounds when it should just work.  Of course I don't  write code, but I would hope as you pointed out, that the functionality of both tools could be melded into one. Scalable would be nice. 90% of stairs are pretty straightforward however when you need to get squirrelly and creative, it has to be able to accommodate. 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I also agree with the original poster and think that the stair tool is sorely lacking.

 

I struggle to make changes which are mathematically correct because too many supposedly unlocked parameters are constraining the adaptability of the stairs.   

 

For most stairs I find that the key and fundamental parameters are the overall height and width of the stair and the depth of tread. Everything else is secondary and should adapt in relation to these three parameters by default, not dictate them. This should be the starting point. 

 

Riser height is another key factor and is of course constrained by building regulations. This should be a separate calculation which is simply overall height divided by number of risers, and not affected by anything else other than perhaps a user override for custom editing.

 

Currently other factors such as stair length appear to have an equal weighting with these fundamental parameters and it makes editing stairs highly frustrating. 

Edited by TArchit
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Is the Stair tool really not able to create a stair with steel construction ?? (Unlike the Custom Stair which has an option for steel construction).

 

I typically use the Custom Stair, but I am trying to use the Stair tool because the Custom Stair is pretty buggy under Vw2016. The experience of using the Stair tool leaves me frustrated to say the least.

 

I very strongly feel that any tool that replaces an older legacy tool should have the same basic functionality as the tool it is replacingand it must not take away functionality as we currently have with the Stair tool (and also the Strucutral Members).

 

I know it is probably too late to hope that the Stair tool situation will be remedied in Vw2018, but how many version upgrades will it take? What version was the Stair tool introduced?

Edited by rDesign
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

 

7150 Riverwood Drive, Columbia, Maryland 21046, USA   |   Contact Us:   410-290-5114

 

© 2018 Vectorworks, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Vectorworks, Inc. is part of the Nemetschek Group.

×