MarcelP102 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Perhaps @P Retondo can make a screen recording explaining his missing feature? Than we can discuss missing functionality or possible solutions? 1 Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 (edited) Zoomer, if you are a classically trained architect you may have been taught the method in hand drafting whereby you put a piece of trace over a plan, and by projecting lines develop a section design for a building. We used to call this "designing in section." What I am referring to is a similar process, but using the 2d/3d hybrid methods of VW. Very useful to create objects like these: Regarding Marcel's request, it would be difficult approaching impossible to attach a video showing what I CAN'T do. My complaint right now, though, is not that I can't do something, but that VW seems to be headed towards doing away with true 2d objects altogether. This seems to me to be thoughtless and unnecessary. Edited February 6, 2022 by P Retondo 3 Quote Link to comment
mjm Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 18 minutes ago, P Retondo said: but that VW seems to be headed towards doing away with true 2d objects altogether. This seems to me to be thoughtless and unnecessary. Following this wonderful discussion avidly here. I suppose to me the big stumbling block is perhaps VW appears to be charging ahead toward true 3D cad while indicating 'Screen Plane Still Lives'. For some the lack of a simple "Screen Plane on and Locked" button means chaos in their day, makes the software feel unreliable (kinda like trying to keep Clip Cube unchecked after that first enabling;)). Once one has developed ones workflow over say a decade, change can be difficult, because among other things one's entire approach to producing content likely must shift. I think of my own process neither 3D nor 2D, rather more like 2.5D lol. I model much yet depend heavily on 2D for many aspects of my output. And as for Autohybrids - YAY & also NAY. My machine has been brought to it's knees trying to AH a complex portion of a model -then I gotta draft it myself, so time lost doubly. Getting too old to learn|change|adapt as fast as the product demands of me. 3 Quote Link to comment
MarcelP102 Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 (edited) @P Retondo I meant that you could turn on the legacy mode (or use an old version of VW) and show what your workflow is. Record it with OBS Studio. Than we can think about how your ('old') workflow is possible without screen plane. Or we have to conclude that you have a point. I have a hard time understanding what right now is missing. It seems that your complaint is more about what could be lost during the development of VW... That's like complaining that sometime next year it's could be a raining day 😉 The Vectorworks hybrid 2d/3d symbols is an excellent example that shows that moving towards 3D doesn't mean the lost control of 2D output. I'm more than sure that would not go a away. Other BIM software like Revit, which is more true 3D because all views are cut out the model and updated live, also has the possibility to override plan view 2D representation. In that regards VW offers more possibility's by also enabling other views of symbols to be 2d overridden. I'm more in team 3D. Using quick 2D sketches to form an idea and jump as quickly as possible in 3D view to model it. Make sections and views and use annotation space to sketch improvements and than jump back to 3D view to improve. For me personaly what's holding me down is the long time it takes to 'calculate the geometry'. Compared to Revit where the generation of section feels instant, but Revit lacks a lot of other options. So every new feature in VW that helps making 3D drawing more easily and faster is a win IMHO. Edited February 6, 2022 by MarcelP102 Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 14 hours ago, P Retondo said: Very useful to create objects like these: I get it this far. Did not need that so often but AFAIK I would draw some 2D helper lines starting from my 3D geometry, for intersection points and snapping from side views. Where I struggle is, when, where and how comes Screen Plane into play. 1 Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Zoomer, draw a layer plane rectangle in Top or Top/Plan view. Copy it. Switch to a side view. Paste it. Do you see a rectangle, or do you see a line? Now do the same thing with a Screen Plane object (if you still have VW 2020 or 2021). See the difference? This capability is actually useful, and in many cases I think faster than other workarounds. 1 Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Yes, ok. But my approach would have been to copy + rotate the rectangle already in 3D View with Rotate Tool at a time. Honestly, 95% of time modeling I am just in an Isometric View where I pan, zoom and rotate the view. 5% is Top Plan View when creating (2.5D) PIOs and because Top Plan View dragging will not shift in Z. I don't even use multiple View Panes because switching Views by NumBlock keys is so fast and easy. As there was no real control or lock in VW for 3rd Dimension in Side Views I avoided them soon. I usually don't use them for Modeling, just for checking. I would not have even thought about leaving my 3D View for the task you described. When needing something 2D in a Side View I usually would draw 2D on Layer Plane in a 3D View, rotate and align in xyz by help of "T" key, one after the other. My most VW worn NumBlock keys are 0, 1, 3, 7, 9 only. Quote Link to comment
Andy Broomell Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 14 hours ago, P Retondo said: Zoomer, draw a layer plane rectangle in Top or Top/Plan view. Copy it. Switch to a side view. Paste it. Do you see a rectangle, or do you see a line? Now do the same thing with a Screen Plane object (if you still have VW 2020 or 2021). See the difference? This capability is actually useful, and in many cases I think faster than other workarounds. Once you Paste-in-Place the rectangle, switch the Plane in the OIP to Working Plane and it should do what you want. (Yes it's an extra click, I'll concede that). And I know what you mean about "designing in section" which isn't quite as simple without Screen Plane... But in general I've found myself running into fewer plane-related hiccups in 2022 with Screen Plane gone, so I'm thankful for the change. 1 Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Andy Broomell said: (Yes it's an extra click, I'll concede that). Hmmh, I think I get it. From my (poor) Screen Plane experience in the past, I always assumed that the Screen Plane Objects wood lose its localization in Space when switching the view and would need to be repositioned or alined anyway. But if I get it right, even Screen Plane, the Object stays where it belongs .... So I may have overseen Screen Plane's comfort for @P Retondo when switching View to realign his 2D helper objects. Edited February 7, 2022 by zoomer 1 Quote Link to comment
Andy Broomell Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 Yes - there was a relationship between the Screen Plane objects' coordinates in plan view, and to where they'd end up in relation to the 0,0,0 origin when you'd switch to orthographic views. It worked best when working "near" the origin. Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Andy Broomell said: there was a relationship between the Screen Plane objects' coordinates in plan view, and to where they'd end up in relation to the 0,0,0 origin when you'd switch to orthographic views. It worked best when working "near" the origin. I activated 2D legacy and Screen Plane and played with it. I still don't get how Screen Plane helps in any way. Indeed, the start point of a screen plane rectangle stays at its initial point. But no idea how this could help me with a helper 2D construction derived from 2D Top Plan View in a Side View .... When I activate the Back View of a Side View, the helper geometry will even appear mirrored !? Sorry, I think I am out at this point. I stay in my 3D space and layer plane for 2.5D. Screen Plane is now hidden for me, which I appreciate, while still accessible for all others, by 2D legacy activation, so I promise - to try - to no more question Screen Plane (Or Unified View OFF or Crop Perspective, or ...) Edited February 7, 2022 by zoomer 2 Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) @zoomer OK, it's fine that you don't get how my work process operates! And I am happy that you realize yours is not the only way, and that others may have methods that should be respected. I don't have time to write a dissertation on how I work, and I doubt you would be really interested, but suffice it to say that the ability to copy and paste 2d objects from one view to another is key to my system of working. BTW, if you go back to the post that initiated this thread, you will see that I am directly addressing the comment there and defending those who use Screen Plane capabilities against attacks that claim that aspect of VW is not important. Edited February 9, 2022 by P Retondo Quote Link to comment
mjm Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 to my eye this entire discussion centers around what works for whom, not so much whether it works or not, as shown by folks decades-long adherence to their way. Sometimes change is warranted, at others: not - so - much. Reading this thread helps me understand how many ways there can be to solve a problem or create a workflow. I personally plan to appropriate everything of use to me in how ya'll others do it. So thank you all 1 Quote Link to comment
mike m oz Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 Pete, try this and see if it gives you a way around your problem. Copy the 2D objects you have drawn in say plan view. Switch to an Elevation view and paste them. With the 2D objects still selected change their Plane from 3D to Working Plane on the OIP. I would probably then Group them so you can move them as a single entity to where you want them. 1 Quote Link to comment
Andy Broomell Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 32 minutes ago, mike m oz said: I would probably then Group them so you can move them as a single entity to where you want them. This actually touches on one remaining annoying aspect: Groups don't have a Plane dropdown in the OIP. 1 Quote Link to comment
mike m oz Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 16 minutes ago, Andy Broomell said: This actually touches on one remaining annoying aspect: Groups don't have a Plane dropdown in the OIP. The issue with Groups is that they can contain 2D, 3D and hybrid objects. That makes it nigh on impossible to have a plane option for Groups. I wonder though whether a plane option for Groups could be added when they only contain 2D Planar objects. Quote Link to comment
Pat Stanford Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 But couldn't a group contain objects that located on different planes? Just like any other container object (symbol/PIO)? Quote Link to comment
mike m oz Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Pat Stanford said: But couldn't a group contain objects that located on different planes? Just like any other container object (symbol/PIO)? Valid point as Groups can already contain objects that are on different planes. Having a Group plane option could lead to unintended consequences so probably not desirable. Quote Link to comment
bcd Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 (edited) Reading this thead got me thinking. Firstly - thank you for the insight & thoughtfulness in the entries. And perhaps there is a path to improving rather than depreciating Screen Plane. I'm thinking of Illustrator/Photoshop etc. rulers & guides. These essentially define ScreenPlane control lines over a mostly 2d world. Why couldn't VW develop the underused rulers - with a "pull to create gude" feature to create a new type of guideline that lives 'on the screen' in much the same way - and then additionaly allow for creation of 2d objects that reside in this new HUD-like overlay layer. Perhaps a simple terminology shift from Screen Plane to Overlay would be enough to get the development team onboard. And - as before, if you want to Sweep/Extrude etc one of these overlay elements it will do so happilly relative to the currently active View. Edited February 10, 2022 by bcd 4 Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Popular Post Josh Loy Posted February 10, 2022 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Popular Post Share Posted February 10, 2022 Hey all, great conversation! If I understand correctly the issue is if I draw planar objects in top, copy them, and them paste them in a front view I only see a sliver because they're pasting to a plane parallel to the layer plane. Screen plane didn't have this problem since those objects are always perpendicular to the view. The "Screen Aligned Plane" is active in front, back, left, and right views even when modifying components; if we modified the paste code to switch layer plane objects to use the screen aligned plane instead would that address the issue? Thanks again for all of your feedback and suggestions, screen plane shouldn't be a workaround. 🙂 5 Quote Link to comment
Popular Post Andy Broomell Posted February 10, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted February 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, Josh Loy said: The "Screen Aligned Plane" is active in front, back, left, and right views even when modifying components; if we modified the paste code to switch layer plane objects to use the screen aligned plane instead would that address the issue? Thanks again for all of your feedback and suggestions, screen plane shouldn't be a workaround. 🙂 If it were me, I'd code it so that "Paste" always pastes planar objects to the Active Plane, and "Paste in Place" pastes to whichever plane they were initially on. So essentially yes, what you describe would be helpful in my opinion. 🙂 Along these lines, there's currently an issue when copying a planar object from a 3D plane and then pasting onto a Sheet Layer or into SLVP Annotations, which results in the object still being on the 3D plane but in paper space. Since a Sheet Layer is active, there's no Plane dropdown to fix this and align it to the sheet view. The functionality you describe would also fix this issue. 5 Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 44 minutes ago, Josh Loy said: if we modified the paste code to switch layer plane objects to use the screen aligned plane instead would that address the issue? Josh, something along those lines might work very well. It could be a modification key combination like <ctrl> + <alt>. Bear in mind that the user might also want to extract 2d info from a 3d object in a certain view. For example, my steel stair stringers were extracted as polygons from the 3d views, including locations of brackets, etc., then output as .dwgs for waterjet CNC that cut the shapes, bolt holes, and markers for welded attachment. 2 Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 9 hours ago, Andy Broomell said: If it were me, I'd code it so that "Paste" always pastes planar objects to the Active Plane, and "Paste in Place" pastes to whichever plane they were initially on. 👆🏼 1 Quote Link to comment
mike m oz Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 Josh, one problem still remains. In any non orthogonal 3D view, including isometric, you can no longer draw a 2D shape to define a Viewport crop for that 3D view on a Sheet Layer. You have to create an overall Sheet Layer Viewport and then crop it on the Sheet Layer. 1 Quote Link to comment
Popular Post Tom W. Posted February 11, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted February 11, 2022 There is the new create working plane from current view button (or whatever its called) to do this. On view bar. Very quick + easy 6 Quote Link to comment
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