digitalcarbon Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 always trying to understand the time it takes... Quote Link to comment
grant_PD Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Agree 100%. It would seem that moving from 2d to 3d increases the time by a factor of 10. Quote Link to comment
CipesDesign Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 I would agree (but maybe reduce it to 7-8 times, once one is really proficient). But there is another important point here: what about the time saved at the other end, in producing Elevations and Sections? And the amazing visual presentations possible without the need of hiring a watercolorist? Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 41 minutes ago, grant_PD said: a factor of 10. please explain...as I thought factor meant 10hrs x factor of 10 = 100 Quote Link to comment
grant_PD Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 I was thinking 10 minutes to draw the markups on the plan and 10 hrs to reproduce it in vectorworks. My math is probably wrong! and yes, @CipesDesignthat is the argument I always use in favor of 3D. It's time consuming to build the asset, but once you do the outputs far outstrip the utility of the 2d. 1 Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, grant_PD said: 10 minutes to draw the markups while I was not there for the existing conditions field notes...I would assume ~6hrs. This would include general drive time. It seems like it would tie up a person most of the day if you sent someone out to do that...they would leave at 8am then back by 3pm...could be wrong...but that is my gut feeling Edited December 23, 2020 by digitalcarbon Quote Link to comment
Kevin K Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 I do have to chime in on this one, with total impunity. First, i would rather eat bees than even imaging drawing sections and elevations with 2D methodology, full stop. If anyone or any design firm thinks that 2D is the way to go in producing working drawings is living on planet Claire or Earth 2. I can’t tell you how many times I have encountered people or firms that would say, “ oh, we only work in 2d”. I have tried to tell those people how they are missing the boat, but, you know the old saying about “ leading the horse to water”. I am sure I don’t need to remind most of you all the reasons we do embrace residing in the 3d world. As mentioned, yes, it takes a bit longer to develop a thoughtful, tight 3d model of a project. But, after that, creating construction docs is an easy downhill slide. Approaching a project with the 2d paradigm versus a 3d is as divergent as croissants and fill dirt. So, “TIME” that! Ok......my Wednesday rant is over. 🙂 2 Quote Link to comment
Kevin K Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 @digitalcarbon 5 hours??? Really?? To me that looks like about 30 minutes in my world. Roof, walls, textures, windows, door, for that example?? Am I correct? Maybe I am missing something. Quote Link to comment
Popular Post TomKen Posted December 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2020 Here is a simple project I did to prove a point to the 2d only people in my office. I already had a 2d floor plan and elevations to start with so there was no design time involved. 5 hours to model the building including the kitchen. Then I spent 1-1/2 hours in Twinmotion and generated about 10 images. I'm just learning Twinmotion so the images are O.K. but I know they can get much better. From this model I can now do my, roof plan, floor plan, foundation plan, as many sections and elevations as I want, door schedule, window schedule etc. And the most important thing is that when I make a change almost everything is updated across all my views. 8 Quote Link to comment
digitalcarbon Posted December 23, 2020 Author Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) Elevation 3d.vwx Edited December 23, 2020 by digitalcarbon Quote Link to comment
Popular Post Boh Posted December 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2020 There is a general consensus that 3D modelling is the way to go and @TomKen’s post is a pretty convincing argument of exactly that. Over the last few years Ive been gently encouraging staff in my office to work in 3D. I’ve done everything I can from setting up drawing templates and libraries, wall styles, standard textures etc etc etc etc. I willingly provide support when they get stuck, I circulate training tips and tricks, I review their drawings and make suggestions... But nevertheless I also still get this: 52 minutes ago, Kevin K said: I have tried to tell those people how they are missing the boat, but, you know the old saying about “ leading the horse to water”. Most staff have “seen the light” however despite everything that’s in place to ease the pain there are still those who want to stick with what they know. that being a 2d workflow. The reasons people resist change I think are various. From their personality type - some people are just stuck in their ways and find it really hard to change. To the sort of work they do - our interior designers are particularly slow in moving to 3D. The biggest reason however is (funnily enough) “TIME” To make the switch from 2d to 3D takes a lot of time. There are a whole new range of tools to become proficient in, a whole different way of setting up drawings etc etc. That takes a lot of time. Most offices need the drawing ASAP. There is no time and if there was the boss may not be able to afford to pay for it. That is the reality for a lot of practices, especially smaller ones. How do you accommodate all the required training when you are under constant time pressure to be productive? The answer of course is that in order to upskill you more often than not need to spend your own time. So it’s easy to say “look how much better 3D is”. Getting folks to make the switch is much more complicated. 6 1 Quote Link to comment
Kevin K Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Boh That was eloquently put...and pretty spot on, but....as far as migrating from 2d to 3d..... I see it as that old Nike ad on tv..... JUST DO IT!! :-) Quote Link to comment
Boh Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Ha! Yeah, easy to say just do it. If the boss says it then that does make it easier! Quote Link to comment
Kevin K Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 @Boh UH......Maybe it is time for YOU to be the boss?? :_) 1 Quote Link to comment
CipesDesign Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 It was waaaaay back, at one of Janis Kent's (anyone remember her?) MiniCad Training Seminars, that's when I "got it". That was the best three days (of classes) that I ever spent in my life. And most of what she taught us is still relevant today. Even though VW's has changed (and not always for the better - today I'm very upset about the "new" orbit animation tool eg) the basic bones are still the same. Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Kevin K said: @digitalcarbon 5 hours??? Really?? To me that looks like about 30 minutes in my world. Roof, walls, textures, windows, door, for that example?? Am I correct? Maybe I am missing something. That's what I was thinking too, depending on level of detail. Quote Link to comment
Kevin K Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 @CipesDesign Janis Kent!! Oh my....That was a while ago. Wonder what she is up to these days. She certainly was an icon during those times, I agree. Quote Link to comment
EAlexander Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Kevin K said: @digitalcarbon 5 hours??? Really?? To me that looks like about 30 minutes in my world. Roof, walls, textures, windows, door, for that example?? Am I correct? Maybe I am missing something. Same here. Edited December 23, 2020 by EAlexander Quote Link to comment
Popular Post Christiaan Posted December 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Boh said: So it’s easy to say “look how much better 3D is”. Getting folks to make the switch is much more complicated. Indeed. I did actually achieve this at my last practice (i.e. we worked nearly exclusively in 3D) but first: 1. I had to become extremely proficient myself (to the point that I always had an answer to somebody's problem) 2. For a few projects I was on my own, just me modelling and everybody else 2D. 3. I had to get the director completely on board, which took years 4. We had to streamline the director's feasibility study files, because they were often the foundation of any project and I had realised that this was where a lot of the office ill-discipline was stemming from. 5. Then I needed at least one other person who was good enough at modelling to work with my on a project, and where they lacked skills they made up for it with curiosity and a willingness to figure it out. 6. Then all we needed was for everybody else to be on board with the idea that this is how we worked. A training session for the whole office with Jonathan Reeves really helped kickstart the culture for this. 7. From then on it all starting falling into place. I was still generally starting projects off, or managing them very closely, but everybody was starting to help each other and finding ways to improve the workflow. Once you're at that point it starts to snowball and look after itself. In fact I knew we'd made it when I started getting VW and modelling tips from my juniors. That was very satisfying. Edited December 23, 2020 by Christiaan 6 Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 14 minutes ago, EAlexander said: Same here. Haha, yes, but you are another league, otherwise you wouldn't have that portfolio. I can imagine that time flies. Not really because of the geometry but because you have to try to read and sort all that handwritten dimensions, that may contradict here and there. And I am sure I would need an extra 4 hours just because of the use of imperial fractions, "funny units" as I am used to call them. 3 Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, zoomer said: otherwise you wouldn't have that portfolio. That is a great portfolio! 1 Quote Link to comment
Boh Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 47 minutes ago, Christiaan said: 4. We had to streamline the director's feasibility study files, because they were often the foundation of any project and I had realised that this was where a lot of the office ill-discipline was stemming from. Could you expand on that? I’m interested to know if this might be one of my stumbling blocks. Quote Link to comment
EAlexander Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 1 hour ago, zoomer said: Haha, yes, but you are another league, otherwise you wouldn't have that portfolio. I can imagine that time flies. Not really because of the geometry but because you have to try to read and sort all that handwritten dimensions, that may contradict here and there. And I am sure I would need an extra 4 hours just because of the use of imperial fractions, "funny units" as I am used to call them. Ha - Thank you! Quote Link to comment
Jeff Prince Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 (edited) I don't know... From this to this, 3hr 30 mins, including flying the drone for the data collection and scaling correctly in Vectorworks ...the drone flight was only 15 minutes lol. Edited December 24, 2020 by jeff prince 1 Quote Link to comment
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