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Andy Broomell

Revamp Section Lines / Section-Elevation Markers

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I am in the process of migrating from Archicad but posts like this make me want to run away screaming!

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I scream too about VW - there are reasons enough - but didn't ran away so far ....

 

(I am sure Archicad users have enough to complain too ?)

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yes yes and yes to all of it.  This tool is a mainstay of my workflow and I have learned to just leave it alone, accept it as a demon and deal with it.  Here's hoping for a revamp in 2020.

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Whoa, @Andy Broomell ! Thank you soo much for the analysis and taking the time to write it all out.  This is the kind of detailed talking points and slide deck I always imagined the vwx engineers engaging in. Managers at the same table then directing the engineers to take it all apart and put it all back together in a specific way that is cohesive and logical for the end users.  But, maybe that discussion and direction just doesn't happen for these legacy tools and processes.  Hopefully this thread will be a kick in the pants to take a look.

 

This seems like one of those vwx items that started one way then was remodeled and added to version after version until development was just abandoned.

A massively revised version of this "section/elevation marker tool/object thing" might break the existing one when drawings are converted.

Would engineering a new, consolidated object/process be a viable path?

The old objects could coexist on drawings and the old tools/commands could then be delegated to the legacy area of the workspace mgr for use if anyone needs.

 

And, I'm imagining @zoomer screaming and running (zooming?) but not too far.  😀

 

-B

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Hello everyone, we had a similar - but less detailed - discussion/request here a few months ago. Thumbs up!

 

 

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The excellent analysis by @Andy Broomell of the multiple ways in which these particular elements are confusing is illustrative of a common theme across the whole of VW. There are so many tools that have similar problems. Many instances of two tools that do nearly the same thing, inconsistent naming of functions, and much of it not properly documented, so that the only way you can figure out how things actually work is to spend a large chunk of your own time untangling it. I wonder if the notes I've written for myself on how VW functions work may soon be more extensive than VW's own help pages.

 

Occasionally I do what @Andy Broomell has done above - write out a detailed explanation of why something's ultra-confusing. And then several releases later - nothing has changed.

 

I feel sorry for anyone trying to learn VW from scratch.

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@Andy Broomell,

 

I've been following this thread since you started and thank you for laying all of this out in such detail!

In fact, I created a similar list of issues for these objects and your list looks almost identical!  As I mentioned in the other related thread, we are looking at these issues and are investigating ways to address them.  

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2 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

@Andy Broomell,

 

I've been following this thread since you started and thank you for laying all of this out in such detail!

In fact, I created a similar list of issues for these objects and your list looks almost identical!  As I mentioned in the other related thread, we are looking at these issues and are investigating ways to address them.  

 

That's great to hear that these issues are being looked at. I hope some progress will be made.

 

But they aren't new. This is no criticism of you: but how has this mess been allowed to exist for so long? Here's a thread from 2007 with someone confused by pretty much the same thing.

 

That's 13 years ago. 13 years!

 

Will we be coming back to this in 2033?

 

 

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1 hour ago, line-weight said:

That's great to hear that these issues are being looked at. I hope some progress will be made.

 

But they aren't new. This is no criticism of you: but how has this mess been allowed to exist for so long? Here's a thread from 2007 with someone confused by pretty much the same thing.

 

That's 13 years ago. 13 years!

 

Will we be coming back to this in 2033?

 

I've only been at Vectorworks for a few years, so I cannot say why these issues have been around this long.  All I can say is that these issues are much more on our radar now.

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 @Matt Panzer Smart markers in VW 2021 are a big step forward in terms of consistency and usability. I find most of the tools and features introduced starting from data tags in VW 2019 of great value: it really makes my/our job much easier to manage. Great Job!

Edited by str

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3 hours ago, str said:

 @Matt Panzer Smart markers in VW 2021 are a big step forward in terms of consistency and usability. I find most of the tools and features introduced starting from data tags in VW 2019 of great value: it really makes my/our job much easier to manage. Great Job!


@str, I’m glad you like what you see so far with the new Smart Markers!

I feel like these new features will easily go unnoticed Soon after you start using them.  IOW, they’ll simply work the way you want them to so you can get your work done without fiddling around with things you shouldn’t have to fiddle with.  🙂

 


I should add that the engineers did an amazing job to make this all happen.

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The new smart markers in 2021 are a pain, just open an existing project I've been working & now it changed some of my exisitng markers & now the is some type of indicator in red to the top left that interferes with aligning objects. I have not yet figured out how to get ride of it, it does not print but is visible in all of me design & sheet layers, it looks like a mistake left in red on my drawings. Very annoying. I've only used 2021 for one 8 hour day & hope I can figure out how to remove it. So far I can not seen any use for it.

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16 hours ago, Dubman said:

The new smart markers in 2021 are a pain, just open an existing project I've been working & now it changed some of my exisitng markers & now the is some type of indicator in red to the top left that interferes with aligning objects. I have not yet figured out how to get ride of it, it does not print but is visible in all of me design & sheet layers, it looks like a mistake left in red on my drawings. Very annoying. I've only used 2021 for one 8 hour day & hope I can figure out how to remove it. So far I can not seen any use for it.

 

This is a Design-series feature to show the status of linked viewports, building on similar functionality in previous versions. Below is a link from the 2021 User Manual page on Creating Section-Elevation Lines:

 

Quote

Specifies which viewport the line references. If the line was created while creating a section viewport, the information for the viewport is displayed, and cannot be edited.

A red link icon is displayed next to a marker that isn’t linked to a viewport; the icon does not print.

 

Edited by rDesign

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That red unlinked icon also existed in previous versions when certain marker objects weren't linked to viewports. 2021 simply adds the ability to link more object types to viewports. (I swear at one point in the past there was a green "linked" icon next to markers that were linked, but that seems to have gone away at some point?)

 

Indeed, it would be great if the had the option to not display these icons. Similar to showing and hiding constraints, it could be an option under View > Show.

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Thanks rDesign, I usually do not upgrade during a production especially in the middle of a large set. But I needed to because of a major problem in editing walls with objects in them. VW service select tech said it was happening in 2020 SP5 but not in the new 2021, so in the middle of this project I did & wow to my surprise a major pain. Last night I as looking thru YouTube & VW Help & found nothing & did not think of the user manuals. I need to down load these so I can read them at night & figure out the controls of these new items.

Thanks again for the link!!!!

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Actually this link does not tell me how to get of the red link symbol which does nothing, why do I need to see it. Would it not be better to see it in the Object info instead seeing how I can not align the label because of this useless red link symbol. So I have not figured it out buy converting each one to a group which sucks in quick editing.

Arg!

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Andy, here is a screen shot of what I am talking about. It seems to me that VW is punishing me for not linking these detail callouts to a view port, because they are not linked, but as soon as I do the red link symbol disappears. But I do not have all of my details on view ports, I do more details on design layers to save the time in clicking into & out of view ports, I can finish drawings much faster  this way. Also you can see in the screen shot how this red link symbol is part of the object so when I try to align them with other objects it is in the way of doing it. Why does it need to be part of the object? Why do I need to see it in the drawing area when the Object Info pallet tells me everything I need about each object.

VW issues.jpg

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I see what you're saying now too. By aligning you mean using Align/Distribute. I thought you meant it was making you unable to accurately select and move/align the object manually.

 

It seems to me like the red icon shouldn't be included in the bounding box of the object...

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Thanks to VW & these new smart labels I now have an ghost image of one on every one of my new & existing sheet layers that I can not delete.

The red icon does not need to be seen, the object info pallet shows if it is linked or not. It has no use for me!

I tried to edit one smart label with out realizing it changed al of them thru out a 30 sheet set of drawings, ARG !!!!!!!!!!

Oh, I love this, I tried to cover this ghost image with a rectangle white fill & no lines & it stays on top no matter what

VW PROBLEMS.jpg

VW PROBLEMS #2.jpg

Edited by Dubman

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Does the ghost image stay there after closing and re-opening the file? I've seen a similar issue before but in relation to the regular symbol insertion tool (My guess is that the new markers use similar code for insertion).

 

24 minutes ago, Dubman said:

I tried to edit one smart label with out realizing it changed al of them thru out a 30 sheet set of drawings, ARG !!!!!!!!!!

 

This is how "Styles" work generally and is part of why they're so useful. Definitely takes some getting used to, but hopefully the error turned into a learning opportunity 😉

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Yes Andy, it was a learning opportunity, for now I am switching back to 2020 so I can have control on the labels & Detail Callouts. The new smart linked labels & callout are of no use to me in my business. All of my finished released drawings are exported as individual PDF's sheets. Being able to change a detail callout to a section callout on the fly is much faster.

Yes the ghost image stays after closing & reopening & it appears in all new & existing design layers & view ports, lucky it does not print.

But from now on it will be VW202o for my on this production & I'll deal with the major issue of editing a wall with door & window symbols inserted in it.

Edited by Dubman

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