Christiaan Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Cornerstone Canada said: Our company is concerned by the announcement to move to a subscription-based Vectorworks model. In addition to the modified cash-flow arrangement that we are not accustomed to, we fear that the increased frequency of updates could potentially have an adverse effect on staff productivity, so for our firm - it's cause for alarm. Given the time it takes to migrate custom tools, then update our project teams and migrate files with each new annual version, and the potential for breaking tools, or introducing new bugs and problems into important project files - we generally don't update our version of Vectorworks once a project achieves the critical Construction Drawing stage (unless that version of Vectorworks is particularly buggy). These files are our bread and butter, so, although we subscribe to Vectorworks Service Select, we generally do not install each new version of the software that we are entitled to. Once a project is in this mission-critical stage and the workflow is stable - we tend to avoid disrupting it by adding new software - until that project is complete. We hope that Vectorworks will continue to offer a purchase-to-own stream for long term customers, such as ourselves. Subscriptions won't change your update schedule. You can still update when you want. 3 Quote Link to comment
Tom W. Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Christiaan said: Subscriptions won't change your update schedule. You can still update when you want. Ok from the discussion here I was imagining something more fundamental changing in terms of the annual release cycle + the way new tools/features are introduced but it sounds like I misunderstood + as a SS customer I will probably not notice any difference...? 1 Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Tom W. said: Ok from the discussion here I was imagining something more fundamental changing in terms of the annual release cycle + the way new tools/features are introduced but it sounds like I misunderstood + as a SS customer I will probably not notice any difference...? I don't actually have any insight on how updates will be distributed going forward. But, in principle, companies can wait as long as they like before installing an update, just as we can now. I guess the caveat to that would be if security and stability updates get bundled up with new feature updates. In that case people may feel pressured to update. Quote Link to comment
shorter Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 13 hours ago, Cornerstone Canada said: Our company is concerned by the announcement to move to a subscription-based Vectorworks model. In addition to the modified cash-flow arrangement that we are not accustomed to, we fear that the increased frequency of updates could potentially have an adverse effect on staff productivity, so for our firm - it's cause for alarm. Given the time it takes to migrate custom tools, then update our project teams and migrate files with each new annual version, and the potential for breaking tools, or introducing new bugs and problems into important project files - we generally don't update our version of Vectorworks once a project achieves the critical Construction Drawing stage (unless that version of Vectorworks is particularly buggy). These files are our bread and butter, so, although we subscribe to Vectorworks Service Select, we generally do not install each new version of the software that we are entitled to. Once a project is in this mission-critical stage and the workflow is stable - we tend to avoid disrupting it by adding new software - until that project is complete. We hope that Vectorworks will continue to offer a purchase-to-own stream for long term customers, such as ourselves. I don't think subscription is going to force you to upgrade every year. This would be disaster if it did. One would hope, as now, you can request legacy licenses. This is the case with VSS too. Quote Link to comment
Christiaan Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 1 minute ago, shorter said: I don't think subscription is going to force you to upgrade every year. This would be disaster if it did. One would hope, as now, you can request legacy licenses. This is the case with VSS too. This one I know. Subscribers will have access to current version + three legacy versions. 2 Quote Link to comment
shorter Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 10 hours ago, Samuel Derenboim said: Can you share a source? Also regarding my assessment wasn't regarding a hunch, but rather demand. Go to Archinect or any other website that provides job listings. On Archinect, search for vectorworks as a keyword. Only 26 jobs available throughout all of United states ( not sure if it covers UK). Do they same for Autocad. 673 results. Revit renders 764 results. Archicad renders 45. Total search results: 1508 Autocad - 44.4 % Revit - 50.6% Archicad - 3 % Vectorworks - 1.7 % These are real-time numbers that currently list jobs available today. As a reseller of VW, I understand your position, but at least be fair. That's in the US. I think the situation is different here, although I am under no illusions. I just tend not to try to make sweeping statements. ps I don't post on here as a reseller but as a consultant to vectorworks professionals wanting go get more from their software. Quote Link to comment
Jeff Prince Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Tom W. said: Ok from the discussion here I was imagining something more fundamental changing in terms of the annual release cycle + the way new tools/features are introduced but it sounds like I misunderstood + as a SS customer I will probably not notice any difference...? I finally got around to reading the letter VWX sent… It’s just cleaver marketing speak which says “perpetual license holders, who are no longer service select members, better pay your protection money or we will fit you with some concrete boots.” Money grab (.) promises of enhanced services, no practical change to how one upgrades, no change to rollouts of new versions. One may deduct from this course of action that the number of people signing up for or maintaining their Service Select memberships has been dwindling. So, instead of fixing the abysmal “priority technical support”, which is a primary reason many used to sign up for the SS, Vectorworks decided to go mafioso. That business strategy works when you have a stranglehold on the market, as evidenced by the open letter to Autodesk mentioned earlier. When you are the old man on the block, with no heir apparent and no appreciable influence, you better not piss of your kids… they are likely the ones who will be choosing your nursing home. All of this points to a ripe market for a BIM alternative. I’m guessing the next recession, a bunch of younger AEC folks, and the growing dissatisfaction with the current BIM oligarchy will create the incubator needed for innovation. It will be interesting to watch the next big disruptive technology in the space to emerge, sad that it probably won’t be Vectorworks, which I have grown to love and simultaneously become increasingly frustrated with. 2 Quote Link to comment
Popular Post Christiaan Posted August 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 5, 2022 (edited) Personally I think they're a group of people trying to make a great piece of software. We can argue about the pros and cons of subscription but I don't think the motivation of anybody I've met at VW is up for debate; money grabbing is the furtherest from my thoughts. Edited August 5, 2022 by Christiaan 7 Quote Link to comment
elepp Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 52 minutes ago, jeff prince said: All of this points to a ripe market for a BIM alternative. I’m guessing the next recession, a bunch of younger AEC folks, and the growing dissatisfaction with the current BIM oligarchy will create the incubator needed for innovation. It will be interesting to watch the next big disruptive technology in the space to emerge, sad that it probably won’t be Vectorworks, which I have grown to love and simultaneously become increasingly frustrated with. I am not very hopeful about that. We can see that in the social media business. Rivals will be bought or copied. In the best case they will be integrated, in the worst the product will be shut down and the user base forced to move over. Quote Link to comment
Popular Post Pat Stanford Posted August 5, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 5, 2022 I agree with Christiaan. The people at VW are trying to do the best job they can with the resources they have. I am certain that the sales/marketing/management at VW are aware of all the options and impacts that this change will have. They have watched the industry move in the subscription direction for years. They are not suddenly going to a new model that no-one has ever tried before. And based on their research and experience they are doing what they think will best benefit VW. If it benefits VW then it must also benefit (or at least not harm) the majority of users. Will it be the right thing for all existing users. Absolutely not. Will it be the right fit for many on this thread? Based not he responses, probably not. But the users of this forum are a tiny fraction of the total number of users. And please give the VW people some credit. I am sure this was worked on for a very long time. None of us like it when someone with no understanding of the requirements or site conditions criticizes our designs that were done to the best of our ability. VW personnel feel the same about this. My $0.02. Written for my personally, not in my role as a moderator or in any way representing VW. 11 Quote Link to comment
Sam Jones Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 On 8/3/2022 at 8:37 AM, TomKen said: I was thinking I'd leave myself open to doing the occasional small job when retired. However with a subscription model I won't be able justify paying for it every year. So I guess I'll just have to force myself to sit on the deck and drink beer instead. Enroll in a local college. (I like philosophy myself). Stay up to date on the software using an educational license. If you land a small job pay the monthly fee. You probably won't make real money (you might), but it can be fun and keep you social. If you find other diversions, kiss VW good bye. Good Luck and have fun. 3 Quote Link to comment
Samuel Derenboim Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Pat Stanford said: I agree with Christiaan. The people at VW are trying to do the best job they can with the resources they have. I am certain that the sales/marketing/management at VW are aware of all the options and impacts that this change will have. They have watched the industry move in the subscription direction for years. They are not suddenly going to a new model that no-one has ever tried before. And based on their research and experience they are doing what they think will best benefit VW. If it benefits VW then it must also benefit (or at least not harm) the majority of users. Will it be the right thing for all existing users. Absolutely not. Will it be the right fit for many on this thread? Based not he responses, probably not. But the users of this forum are a tiny fraction of the total number of users. And please give the VW people some credit. I am sure this was worked on for a very long time. None of us like it when someone with no understanding of the requirements or site conditions criticizes our designs that were done to the best of our ability. VW personnel feel the same about this. My $0.02. Written for my personally, not in my role as a moderator or in any way representing VW. I agree, the people that develop the software I am sure that they are in 100%. Your help alone in these forums helps a tremendous amount. The fact that the programers/developers in VW also participate in the conversation is a huge deal. Having said that, how will the subscription system help ? Is it intended to increase the development team? or provide better updates? Will your salaries increase due to this condition? If so, couldn't that simply be solved by increasing the price for entry for permanent licenses - and why will that option no longer work? At the end of the day, is it the development team that determines whether or not features get released? or whether it is the appropriate time to release them? or is it management? I just am under the guise that management is divorced from development despite how well intentioned and passionate the team is...unless I am mistaken, then Ill certainly eat my words. Edited August 5, 2022 by Samuel Derenboim 1 Quote Link to comment
Jeff Prince Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 5 hours ago, Pat Stanford said: And please give the VW people some credit. I am sure this was worked on for a very long time. None of us like it when someone with no understanding of the requirements or site conditions criticizes our designs that were done to the best of our ability. VW personnel feel the same about this. There is a difference between criticism of business practices and being critical of one’s work. Both are valid when offered appropriately. When I pay for something as expensive as vectorworks and have been let down by Service Select (see issues in my signature for a few of the simple examples), you don’t expect for a few customers to call it for what it is? If they need money, they should raise their prices. That is at least understandable. Forcing people to pay and promising services that will fail to be delivered is lame. Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/2/2022 at 3:09 AM, Cadplan Architecture said: It's basically exactly what Adobe did with the Creative Cloud, subscription is a revenue generator in my view. Some may drift off to other software. If we are not agreement then we must make our feelings known? Except that Creative Cloud is an entire suite of software valued at over $6000 for $30 a month, so this is more like half the value for 1 app at 5x the price. 1 Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/2/2022 at 7:56 AM, _James said: Thought it would be interesting to check out their changelog: July 22 - 1 update June 22 - 2 updates May 22 - 1 update April 22 - 2 updates March 22 - 1 update February 22 - 1 update January 22 - 2 updates 2021 had 17 updates in the year.All a mix of new features, improvements, bug fixes etc. I looked at some of the forum posts showing these updates and they have pretty positive comments from users. If Vectorworks start doing something like this (and the updates are actually good!) I will be impressed. Rhino does the same thing with a perpetual license. Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/2/2022 at 2:27 PM, line-weight said: Given that perpetual licences will be sold until Dec 2022, and VW2023 will presumably appear around September, I guess VW2023 will be the last version of Vectorworks you can buy and own. So... let's hope that it's less of a mess than VW2022. I expect I will probably buy it and then sit on VW2023 for some time to see what happens. I assume that buying VW2023 will entitle you to all the SP fixes for a year - or will the whole system change, leaving you with it frozen somewhere around SP2 in January? The FAQ aren't entirely clear about this - it looks like you might have to pay for Service Select to get the SPs? Totally get this but also consider a few other things: there will be discounts on 2023 and other incentives to convert to SS, so get SS to buy (literally) yourself another year to weigh your longterm options because, sadly, this December is “now or never.” Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/3/2022 at 4:02 AM, Christiaan said: Yes, I would argue that's the case with an arbitrary annual release cycle. Features get held back from a major release because they're not ready and then they have to wait a whole year before they're released—to keep the marketing department happy—delaying the feature and not allowing the engineers to make a clean break and focus on something else. Or features might get pushed out early before they're ready and stable—because they don't want to wait another year to release it and to keep marketing happy—thereby reducing stability and causing the engineers to have to mop up the problems after release, not allowing them to focus on something else. This. There’s an enhancement that’s near and dear to my heart that seemed soooooo close to making it into 2023 but was going to slip a whole year. If you’re a Mac user, you’re all too familiar with that sinking feeling every year around WWDC. Anyway, the very beginning of this enhancement will make an appearance in September, and I’m told it will be improved throughout the year. That’s only one little nugget of hope, and the proof will be in the pudding, but it’s definitely a step in the right direction, so fingers crossed… Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/3/2022 at 4:34 AM, twk said: Spot on @Christiaan. The yearly cycles are a headache precisely because of the number of major features included in a yearly release. If features were spread out over the year, users could focus on learning a new feature for each quater then use that in the next quarter, instead of spending 3quarters of the year learning and trying to implement new featuers/workflows, almost in time for another yearly release with another new set of features or workflows. … and the busiest quarter of the year testing them. Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/3/2022 at 6:32 AM, bc said: From the Email: "As a current Service Select member, this email is to notify you of the upcoming changes and reassure you that they do not affect the terms or status of your existing Service Select agreement. As long as you maintain your license(s) under Service Select, you will be able to continue to renew your agreement annually and enjoy the same benefits you do today, including access to new software releases." It seems like, for current Service Select users, the status quo will be maintained. What am I missing or naive about? That is correct. The burden will be put on new users not existing ones. Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 (edited) On 8/3/2022 at 7:07 AM, EAlexander said: I wont argue about the pro and cons of subscription as this has been beaten to death on the internet - everyone's situation is different, so there is no one size fits all that makes everyone happy. I've seen it with Cinema 4d, Adobe CC, Substance, and many others. The difference is Cinema merged all of its modules into one “Design Suite” for everyone (which also greatly simplified things) for $99/month. Adobe took their entire suite of apps (roughly $6,000) for $30/month. However VW will continue charging $150/month for a single module, and it goes up to $328/month for Designer/Braceworks/ConnectCAD (what I have). I never had a license for a single Adobe app but ever since Creative Cloud was released, I’ve rented all of them for $30/month. That’s $3,600 over the past decade. And they never would have seen a cent from me otherwise. That’s how you do SaaS. Edited August 6, 2022 by Mark Aceto Quote Link to comment
Jeff Prince Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 35 minutes ago, Mark Aceto said: I never had a license for a single Adobe app but ever since Creative Cloud was released, I’ve rented all of them for $30/month. That’s $3,600 over the past decade. And they never would have seen a cent from me otherwise. Or, you could have bought a perpetual license of the entire Affinity suite for both the workstation and iPad. Plus a ton of aftermarket brushes and hardbound manuals .....for under $200, when it's all on sale. That's less than $3 a month over 6 years. Affinity Photo beat Photoshop to the iPad platform by years while Adobe twiddled their thumbs. Procreate was like $9 when I bought it, 4 years ago IIRC. I use it weekly on paid work and enjoy sketching on it for fun too. All adobe has done for me during this time period is continuously prompt me to put my stuff on the cloud so they can hold my data hostage. Affinity and Procreate could probably charge $100s of dollars per year at this point... if they maintained their levels of innovation and service. People would complain, because it is difficult for companies to justify price increases when the are selling loss leaders. Point of this information is innovators can come along at any point and capture marketshare. The BIM marketplace is beyond ready for such a company to emerge. Blender is free and look at what it can do, imagine what happens when the user interface becomes more palatable to the masses... 2 Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 4 minutes ago, jeff prince said: Or, you could have bought a perpetual license of the entire Affinity suite for both the workstation and iPad. Plus a ton of aftermarket brushes and hardbound manuals .....for under $200, when it's all on sale. That's less than $3 a month over 6 years. Affinity Photo beat Photoshop to the iPad platform by years while Adobe twiddled their thumbs. Procreate was like $9 when I bought it, 4 years ago IIRC. I use it weekly on paid work and enjoy sketching on it for fun too. All adobe has done for me during this time period is continuously prompt me to put my stuff on the cloud so they can hold my data hostage. Affinity and Procreate could probably charge $100s of dollars per year at this point... if they maintained their levels of innovation and service. People would complain, because it is difficult for companies to justify price increases when the are selling loss leaders. Point of this information is innovators can come along at any point and capture marketshare. The BIM marketplace is beyond ready for such a company to emerge. Blender is free and look at what it can do, imagine what happens when the user interface becomes more palatable to the masses... That's 2 apps lol. There's not going to be an Affinity photo that takes the place of Spotlight / Designer / Braceworks / ConnectCAD in the next decade or more. A competitor to any of those apps doesn't even exist today. My point was if VW had come out with a Steve Jobs-style announcement: "VW costs this much... BW costs this much... CC costs this much... The other guys cost this much... Well, we're combining Architect, Landmark, Braceworks, ConnectCAD... and starting today, you can have all of that for $99/month." That would create incentive for users sitting on 2018 licenses or passing on Service Select to subscribe. Same with users paying through the nose for Revit or AutoCAD. That would increase new users, and get all users on the current version. The rising tide raises all boats... To be crystal clear, what I'm saying is that other than some discounts this fall, there was no good news to come with the bad news. The only good news was, "If you're already a SS member, nothing will get worse for you." The promise of a higher quality app isn't the same as what I described above. It's just the status quo minus something that was taken away (perpetual licenses). That's why the reaction has been, "This is a cash grab." It's a poorly executed transition, and it will be interesting to see how all this pans out a few years from now. 3 Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/2/2022 at 2:49 AM, line-weight said: a more stable product by increasing the frequency of updates and allow us to focus on consistent quality throughout each version cycle. The updates to the most expensive add-on, Braceworks, have been glacially incremental at best. As Braceworks-user, I will be judging this "increasing frequency" over the next year. The reason I dropped (Project Wizards) Merlin is because they moved to a SaaS model in the name of increasing development but the opposite happened. Development all but ceased, and they just stuck their hand out. Every developer promises this boilerplate marketing. The onus is on VW to make good on it over the next year. Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/3/2022 at 7:08 AM, Kevin McAllister said: I'm curious whether temporarily adding a licence using the monthly rental option is compatible with Service Select. The entertainment industry will be using the monthly rental option for assistants etc. if its affordable. Kevin As we've been able to for years. Here are the existing plans (Designer plans cost more when paired with BW and/or CC): Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/3/2022 at 9:23 AM, rDesign said: Screenshot from the 2020 NBS 10th Annual National BIM Survey : 96% of marketshare sitting on the table with greedy Autodesk. Imagine if a $99/month sub came along and disrupted that! Quote Link to comment
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