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Don Seidel

Mac Silicon OS and VW

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Posted (edited)

The transition period is 2 years beginning very late 2020.

So I think they will think about supporting for the next two and a half years.

 

And there is Rosetta 2 and Virtualization.

So no hurry.

Edited by zoomer

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I hope we get some sort of official response from Nemetscheck on a timeline.  I don't have a lot of faith in Rosetta 2 or Virtualization.  I'm sure there will be work around's and such, but I'm also old enough to remember the Power PC to Intel transition.  

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Posted (edited)

I would def not spend much (If any) on a new Mac at the moment based on past (PowerPC) experience - no matter what they say- after all, they only sell intel macs at the moment...

 

im planning on sticking with Mojave’s and 2019/2020 until this all blows over (I only work for myself and do small residential work)- but having been the IT guy in a small office as well as an architect - I can already see issues ahead...

best option if you need to buy- buy windows pc and stay away from macs until it’s all sorted.!!

Edited by neal-2002
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34 minutes ago, Don Seidel said:

You must not be a Mac guy 🙂

Buy a Windoz PC ?? If it's good for you, OK. But So many reasons why not to for most of us.

I'm not the least worried about the transition in terms of compatibility or stability. What I'm interested in is how fast VW will take advantage of new system architecture for speed, and most of all, some map to get "instant render" to the Mac version.

Been a Mac guy for 20 years - but use a hackintosh....meaning I can upgrade whatever I like...

 

I don’t take moving to windows lightly...but the fact they so significantly alter the mac os every single year it makes so much more sense - just look at the past experiences with Mac OS updates over past couple of years...they have VW chasing their tales and therefore we get snails pace software improvement..😓

 

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5 hours ago, neal-2002 said:

but the fact they so significantly alter the mac os every single year it makes so much more sense - just look at the past experiences with Mac OS updates over past couple of years

 

Apple has very long-term plans directed by a reasonable objective to make ever-better products. They took some big steps toward their next milestone with changes introduced in Mojave and Catalina which understandably came with significant implications for everyone working in the current paradigm. Change is often uncomfortable, but it's necessary. I think most would agree that Apple's last transition (PowerPC to Intel) was necessary and eventually produced better results than struggling on with Motorola's manufacturing issues. Recent operating system changes have obviously been part of their roadmap to move to their own silicon, so necessary. 

 

Context is a powerful thing. My wife will tell you I'm no optimist, but because I've accepted that it's impractical for software to be made bug-free I'm pragmatic about computer problems. I report issues, then work around them. If it's practical to do so bugs will get fixed, but there'll always be more so it pays to accept certain realities. 

 

Like @Don Seidel I am super excited to see what performance gains Apple's SoC will make possible for Vectorworks, along with the other changes that will make my computing life easier (overall) and more fun. 

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Wait, you think you're going to be supporting ARM mac's this Fall?! That's incredibly awesome news.  

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Posted (edited)

@SteveJ  That is promising.

 

I know it's to early for definitive answers about this transition, but a slightly different question; how long did VW support universal binaries after the last transition, and would that period likely be longer this time? I ask because, from the general commentary so far, it's assumed the more powerful machines will likely be the very last to switch over to Apple's own Silicon. That's going to leave the intel macs as the primary / better option for those needing to upgrade over the next 18 months or so. The length of the "universal" period would make the difference between whether to grab a regular iMac as a stopgap, or whether to purchase as planned?      

Edited by M5d
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On 6/22/2020 at 4:24 PM, designedAF said:

I don't have a lot of faith in Rosetta 2 or Virtualization.  I'm sure there will be work around's and such, but I'm also old enough to remember the Power PC to Intel transition.  

Yea,  me too.  I'm already pushing VW to the limit so Rosetta or virtualization are not appealing options for very long.  It was a rough transition the first go around for some software.

 

I am however excited at the potential performance improvements this could bring.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/23/2020 at 5:12 PM, designedAF said:

Wait, you think you're going to be supporting ARM mac's this Fall?! That's incredibly awesome news.  

 

No, they'll support Big Sur which will run on either Intel or ARM (so, in this context, Intel).

 

@SteveJ how many Mac Mini A12Z Developer Transition Kits have you guys rented so far?

 

Edited by Mark Aceto

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Posted (edited)

@SteveJ and @JuanP by the end of summer, I'd like to know which Mac operating system Vectorworks 2020 will perform best on:

  • 10.14.6
  • 10.15.6 (currently in beta; expecting multiple Supplemental Updates with loads more bug fixes)
  • 11.0+ (currently in beta; expecting the .0 release to be buggy, so realistically between 11.0.1 and 11.0.3)

Reading between the lines, a lot of us are still on Mojave because it's stable (keep in mind that it wasn't until .5 or .6), so we're wondering if we should stay on the most stable release of Mojave, or upgrade to the forthcoming most stable release of Catalina (after they squash the remaining bugs in "The Third Act" of software maintenance on an annual release cycle 😉), or skip Catalina*, and jump to a predictably less stable version of Big Sur.

 

Normally, I would never even entertain the thought of upgrading to a new Mac OS until the .6 release but it's hard to tell if the reason Catalina has been so problematic is because Apple hasn't gotten around to fixing the bugs until now, or if Apple was tired and bored of dealing with OS X, and put their energy and resources into OS XI. All things being relative, it's quite possible that the final version of Catalina will be just as stable as the final version of Mojave (I didn't mean for that to sound sarcastic but the irony is not lost on me).

 

*by skipping Catalina, I don't mean literally. I learned from experience that even if I'm only on Catalina for 1 day, the best practice is not to skip a generation because Apple moves / adds / deletes... files and folders, so if you skip a generation, you might have a bunch of files orphaned where the OS doesn't talk to them anymore. Best to let the OS "touch" everything (same applies to a clean install).

 

Edited by Mark Aceto
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Posted (edited)
On 6/23/2020 at 6:17 PM, M5d said:

@SteveJ  That is promising.

 

I know it's to early for definitive answers about this transition, but a slightly different question; how long did VW support universal binaries after the last transition, and would that period likely be longer this time? I ask because, from the general commentary so far, it's assumed the more powerful machines will likely be the very last to switch over to Apple's own Silicon. That's going to leave the intel macs as the primary / better option for those needing to upgrade over the next 18 months or so. The length of the "universal" period would make the difference between whether to grab a regular iMac as a stopgap, or whether to purchase as planned?      

 

I'll let VW speak for VW but as someone who obsesses over this, and has learned from my Mac purchase mistakes in the past, these are the considerations I'm weighing right now:

  • The last Macs that will allow me to install Mojave on them are in the past (in my case, the ones that I already own).
  • The last Macs that will allow me to install Catalina will be released until September. There are some eGPU benefits to those machines over Mojave. However, eGPU's are a mixed bag, and will hopefully be rendered (pardon the pun) useless 2 years from now when the ARM transition is complete, so throwing down $2,000 for a Radeon Pro VII might not be the best ROI. Long story short, I'd be better of putting that $2,500 all-in eGPU investment into a 16" MBP for real world GPU gains with most 3D design apps (plus I wouldn't have to lug the eGPU onsite; assuming I'll be onsite before the ARM transition is complete).
  • VW's annual upgrade cycle is generally in sync with Apple, so they're both buggy / stable at the same time as they move from .0 to .3+ updates (a truly best case scenario that some users don't seem to understand for whatever reason). It's safe to assume that all developers and manufacturers (think drivers) will be playing catchup to varying degrees with Apple throughout the next 2+ years of transition.
  • Jony Ive is long gone, so it's a safe assumption that we won't have another 2016 MBP SNAFU on our hands but still... 
  • "Third time is a charm". Apple has moved iPhones to a 3-year product cycle. Year 3 is always the most refined / stable version. It's safe to assume that the first ARM Mac's will be less refined /stable than their successors.
    • Keep in mind that it looks like the iMac and some other Macs that haven't been updated in forever will also receive the "major" physical redesign which typically has a litany of kinks that needs to be ironed out ("You're holding it wrong!")

Therefore, the sweet spot to me looks like a 2019/2020 Intel Mac until the transition is complete, and then buying a 2022/2023 ARM Mac. For me, that's tricky because my options are staying on this 2019 MBP Pro with a weak GPU (and possibly adding an eGPU), crap keyboard (and definitely adding a wireless keyboard)... Or ponying up for a 2020 MBP with a ridiculously overpriced GPU running Scatalina  (during a recession with no work in sight).

 

Final thought: the 2015 MBP is a legend. The 2017 and 2019 iMac's are the fastest machines for running VW (including the new Mac Pro). So, while we may have ARM-envy during the transition, we also have perspective: buy the last version Apple release before they screw it up for the next 2-3 years.

 

Final final thought: I may be f*cking 50 before I finally have a Mac that runs like I've needed it to since 2004 (and I'm not even counting the ones I used in the 90's), so I'm asking myself some real career-changing questions during the pandemic... Therefore, what I want to know is will VW still be stuck on 3 cores because of some old library before I turn 50? Because that will be the tipping point for me in this waiting game.

 

image.thumb.gif.33b25105becfae0617bbfbbe0314974b.gif

 

Edited by Mark Aceto
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1 hour ago, herbieherb said:

stop kidding 😄

 

 

From an Apple perspective they are.

Higher clock speeds with consumer desktop CPUs opposed Xeons or mobile chips,

still less thermal restrictions than mobile Macbooks and throttled GPUs may still

work very OK for VW.

 

That small Apple Silicon iMac in "iPad Design Language" late 2020 may not be very

interesting for CAD and 3D. For me Apple Silicon may need to wait until early 2023.

 

I am really curios about the last "Intel" iMac Update. Soon ?

If they ditch iMacPro and bring iMacs in iMac Pro cases, I could live with the 10 core.

(Although I am pretty annoyed that it is not AMD !)

I would buy that to get over that transition period.

 

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27 minutes ago, zoomer said:

From an Apple perspective they are.

A pity, but true.

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I'm 60. Been doing CAD on the Mac for some 35 years or more. VW since MiniCad 4 (I think).

 

Speaking of Macs only, not PC's or Hackintoshes......Certainly some purchases are better timed (new machines always coming)  than others. Certainly some machines are better ROI than others. But it's an eternal moving target.

 

Whenever it's time to upgrade, I buy the fastest machine I can reasonably afford. SO usually it's within 15-20% of the most extreme available. I've never bought the absolute top-of-the line because of this (except....) You pay a high premium. I sold my iMac Pro after 6  months because the performance was not near what I expected.

 

My exception to max purchase is my 2018 MBPro, which replaced the iMac Pro. It was a much better setup for me to have a portable personal machine, a 34" monitor w/ eGPU. Sure it doesn't render as fast as the iMac Pro, but I spend perhaps less than 5% of my time rendering anything beyond OpenGL

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, herbieherb said:

stop kidding 😄

 

Check the link in my post. The 2019 iMac is the fastest single core clock speed machine right now. VW maxes out at 3 cores for most non-rendering tasks, and many operations will always be single core by their very nature (not a limitation of old code). Before that the 2017 iMac was king.

 

Edited by Mark Aceto

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Don Seidel said:

I'm 60. Been doing CAD on the Mac for some 35 years or more. VW since MiniCad 4 (I think).

 

Speaking of Macs only, not PC's or Hackintoshes......Certainly some purchases are better timed (new machines always coming)  than others. Certainly some machines are better ROI than others. But it's an eternal moving target.

 

Whenever it's time to upgrade, I buy the fastest machine I can reasonably afford. SO usually it's within 15-20% of the most extreme available. I've never bought the absolute top-of-the line because of this (except....) You pay a high premium. I sold my iMac Pro after 6  months because the performance was not near what I expected.

 

My exception to max purchase is my 2018 MBPro, which replaced the iMac Pro. It was a much better setup for me to have a portable personal machine, a 34" monitor w/ eGPU. Sure it doesn't render as fast as the iMac Pro, but I spend perhaps less than 5% of my time rendering anything beyond OpenGL

 

 

 

We're in the same boat. My eternal frustration with chasing the Mac dragon is that it's a neverending game of feature Whac-A-Mole. In fact, it's not "features", it's capabilities. It's like trying to buy a Toyota. If you want a sunroof, you have to buy package 5 but package 5 only comes in the color Baby Blue. So I bought a Jeep. The Jeep version of computers is a PC. I can throw an AMD Ryzen CPU and NVIDIA RTX GPU in a 2-year old machine today, and it will be supported (with a minimal amount of mods). Meanwhile, Apple won't license their OS but they also refuse to update their hardware or work with certain suppliers.

 

Do I want a computer that's capable of 4k @ 60Hz? But do I want to have to unplug the USB-C cable/dongle throughout the day because my display is HDMI?

 

Do I want an OS that supports NVIDIA cards? But that puts me in a Thunderbolt 2 machine unless... 

 

the 2017 iMac will install High Sierra. But would I rather have a "headless" Mac?

 

Well that's the Mac Mini. But it doesn't have a discreet GPU, so I have to use an eGPU... 

 

And how about when Unreal releases UE 5, what will Twinmotion's GPU requirements be a year from now? They've already made it clear that the RTX 2080 is the card of choice today, so... 

 

I could build a Hackintosh but how long will that work after the ARM transition?

 

And that's not to mention 32-bit app support, will 3Dconnexion take a year (and multiple updates) to fix a driver that Apple broke with the T2 chip, the POS Touch Bar, the imminent end of OpenGL (and which 3D apps will choose to support Metal), and myriad other features capabilities that Apple has killed off (and is about to kill off in the continued iOSification of the Mac).

 

In the past 3 years, I've tried a 2012 cheesegrater, a 2017 iMac Pro, and a 2019 MBP. Today, I'm typing this on my old 2014 MBP because it just works with everything (and I'm not drafting anything this summer). Which is why I keep going back to the idea of using a MBP for your daily driver (and to take onsite), and then just build a Windows workstation for 3D work.

 

Edited by Mark Aceto
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Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2020 at 3:14 AM, SteveJ said:

Mark, we look forward to our  Developer Kit arrival on July 7!

 

@SteveJ that's great news! Please keep us informed how VW 2020 runs using Rosetta 2 on an ARM Mac.

 

 

Edited by Mark Aceto

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Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2020 at 6:15 PM, Mark Aceto said:

The 2019 iMac is the fastest single core clock speed machine right now.

Not even on the paper, and it throttles because of the iMacs form-factor to about 80% of its potential performance. In single-core tasks this iMac is about as fast as a stock cooled Ryzen 7 3700x. And as always Apple wants me to pay the full price of the i9-9900 in addition to the price of the base configuration. But yes, in a Mac centred view you're absolutely right.

Edited by herbieherb

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5 hours ago, herbieherb said:

Not even on the paper, and it throttles because of the iMacs form-factor to about 80% of its potential performance. In single-core tasks this iMac is about as fast as a stock cooled Ryzen 7 3700x. And as always Apple wants me to pay the full price of the i9-9900 in addition to the price of the base configuration. But yes, in a Mac centred view you're absolutely right.

 

For clarification, the fastest Mac right now (the OP is about "Mac Silicon OS", so I didn't think to clarify that).

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