Jump to content
digitalcarbon

a case for browser based CAD

Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, Kevin McAllister said:

I'd be surprised if architecture is VW's biggest market.

 

Perhaps someone from Vw can provide more official market share numbers, but from this 2017 Engineering.com article it sounds like AEC is the biggest market for Vw:

 

Quote

Another specialty Vectorworks excels at is landscaping, which 9 percent of its users take advantage of (57 percent use it for AEC and 18 percent use it for stage/lighting).

 

Edited by rDesign

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, Kevin McAllister said:

Its interesting reading all the different points of view here about the idea of browser based cad. I think the bigger picture is not necessarily focussed on architecture and that's why many of you don't see the potential. I'd be surprised if architecture is VW's biggest market.

 

Its unlikely a browser based version of VW could replace VW in its current form. But it would be very suitable to things like -

  1. Furniture design
  2. Jewellery design or any other small design market linked to 3d printing
  3. Mechanical design, which used to be part of VW and there have been rumours of adding it back in
  4. Entertainment design. If I could "rent" a browser based version of VW by the week for when I had an assistant working for me
  5. Props design
  6. Outside manufacturers who wanted to share their products as VW content
  7. Exhibit design where graphics designers and other collaborators might want to visualize graphics and other elements in context
  8. Public art projects where 3d visualization is needed

I'm sure there are many other potential users. I can especially see its usefulness if its possible to sign out a portion of a larger file, something that has been made possible by project sharing. Someone could just build geometry that would become part of a larger file/model. Being browser based would also allow for cloud based solutions for generating walkthroughs and other processor intensive tasks.

 

I've used VW for so many different tasks, from designing jewellery up to design work on Olympic Ceremonies. I suspect that any browser based version would be scalable and targeted to multi-discipline designers.

 

Kevin

 

Yes would add,...

- Kitchen Design. Think every Kitchen company could have a web design tool like Ikea and the bigger flat pack companies do.

- Real estate - With potential owners able to lease a copy of the file to test their own furniture in.

 

Learning curve needs to simplified. Tutorials and more important better logic about how the system works.

I can see the potential but I'd also say that about the traditional versions of VW and yet how much has really been delivered of the promise*.

 

*After 20 years Grumpy middle-aged me would say this of a lot Tech.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 6/3/2018 at 11:52 AM, digitalcarbon said:

the survey that VW sent out may not convey the total experience...

 

right now (for my Stainless Steel fabrication drawings) i'm collaborating in real time with 3 people by using a could based system.

there have not been any hardware issues or anything...everyone just gets an account (free) and i can invite them in...up an running in 60 min...

 

AFTER you experience THAT, then your view point changes...

 

I literally walked around the house saying "wow...wow...wow" realizing the pent up potential of having my VW shared in such a way...

 

 

 

 

 

 

That might work for the type of stuff you're doing, but that doesn't mean it would work in an architecture context.

 

If I think of all of the people I need to share info with... for most of them it's pretty much inconceivable that sharing a cloud based 3d model would either be possible or useful in any way.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'd be very pleased if I could work that way and escape the tyranny of 2d PDF documentation - but that point, in practical terms, is miles and miles away. At least for the kind of work I do.

 

Just as an example - when a project is on site you usually have a set of contract drawings, to which various revisions will be made as work goes along. Each of those changes needs not just to be communicated but recorded for the purposes of agreeing cost implications. If that's done by revising a PDF drawing, with changes highlighted, and a revision/issue number associated with the date and so on, then it's fairly unambiguous and no-one can really say that they don't have the technological capacity to open and view a PDF document. Yet working with small contracting firms it's often enough of a challenge just to make sure the people on site have got the most recent revision. Yes in theory, with a centralised, always up-to-date model, those builders would maybe have a tablet or laptop that would allow them to view stuff in 3d on site and pull off the relevant information. It would have to be user-friendly enough that anyone who can read a drawing on paper could do this and get the info they needed. And there'd have to be some system of not just tracking changes to the working drawings but recording changes that are proposed and then abandoned, or not yet agreed, and so on. And all that structure would have to be well established and understood by everyone using it and maybe even written into standard building contracts.

 

None of this is impossible as such but it would require big changes in working practices, not just to drawing software.

 

  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, line-weight said:

have a set of contract drawings

 Yes i see your point...to be clear the centralized model would be to iron out all the issues up to a point...

 

THEN, you make pdfs for CDs....print it out & go on as usual...

 

However...if one is going to use Bluebeam Revu then everyone will need have some type of tech savvy to go paperless...

 

Currently, it has been hard to get the team on BBR...everyone agrees its good to do but it has been 2 weeks since the Project Manager said to use it and only 2 out of 15 are.

 

so, as you said above,  'how would i get them to nav a 3d model?"

 

a gaming environment might suck people into this new paradigm.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, digitalcarbon said:

 Yes i see your point...to be clear the centralized model would be to iron out all the issues up to a point...

 

 

That's the thing, I can see how it would be very useful on a collaborative design project, indeed on the design stage of anything where all parties involved could use and understand the 3d model.

 

For example, it would be great if, when I (doing the architectural side of things) work with a structural engineer, we could both look at the implications of structural member positioning and so on on a live 3d model. Would certainly make it much easier to explain conflicts or work out solutions. But in practice on small/medium jobs...even with 2d CAD I find it difficult enough to integrate architectural/structural drawings. Engineers often like to mark up by hand onto printouts of my drawings. Maybe you'll get a CAD file back from them where they've imported some geometry from my drawings, and done their own bit using their own classes and so on, in a form that's messy enough that it's easiest just for me to measure off and put the info back into my drawings manually. So, if even getting basic 2d integration is such a struggle I can't even imagine how it would work smoothly with a live 3d model that all could make contributions to.

 

Maybe I am being unduly pessimistic.

  • Like 1
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post

Well one thing is for sure guys - VW is getting better responses, good ideas, knowledgeable and clear, well thought practical issues from this thread than the email survey will have directly produced. Maybe they thought this would happen (but I somehow doubt it😃)

 

'bout time someone chipped in from VW for good measure. 

 

Nice to to be part of a 'sensible' forum/community - thanks guys. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
26 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Engineers often like to mark up by hand

 

ok, yes, have experienced the same thing...so for the non-complaints...let them work how they want...i just take their stuff and place it in the model so my team of modelers have the information where its needed and they do all the modeling... (see image below)

 

so there would be a core team of modelers doing a virtual build to proof everyones work...and IF some engineer decides "hey I want to jump into this" then fine they can...

 

the image below is a concrete corner that is easy to understand in 3d..BUT it took 4 D sized drawings to find all the information about it...that's nuts...

 

So in the end people can still have their paper sheets for the CDs but it gets produced by a centralized model that is easy to access (browser).

 

maybe a new discipline is emerging "virtual builders"  they take everyones information, in whatever format, and model it.

 

1018011914_ScreenShot2018-06-04at11_46_13AM.thumb.png.64079b3b06f486f6355f3d7558ae6212.png

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
32 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said:

let them work how they want...i just take their stuff and place it in the model so my team of modelers have the information where its needed and they do all the modeling...

 

In this example where, for coordination and construction purposes, you’re performing the 3D modeling work of a Design / Engineering consultant who hand-drafts, whose Professional Liability Insurance (Errors & Omissions) is going to cover that work?

Edited by rDesign

Share this post


Link to post
18 minutes ago, rDesign said:

cover that work?

not sure i understand... but in the above example i started to do a virtual build and then i would make a video for all showing any problems or if it worked..

 

then the people making the 2d drawings would go back and fix their drawings and resubmit...then i would remodel and make another video...

 

this caught a lot of problems and helped to refine the 2d work

 

im not an engineer nor architect.  currently i take, or am trying to get, everyones information an build a model so everyone can see it clearly

 

then, ideally in a browser world, the different firms can have their cad guy go in an harvest 2d right from the 3d model having a high confidence that its all going to snap together in the field...

 

maybe their cad guy could work in the centralized model from the start since he/she is more tech savvy than the higher ups..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
On 5/8/2018 at 6:35 AM, digitalcarbon said:

I'm in the design development phase of a project and into deep deep modeling...

 

people on the team want constant updates of the model and key configurations...

 

the only way they can get/see this is if I stop modeling and make sheets...

 

need sheets for the Structural Eng, the communication person who makes brochures, etc, the designer who wants volumes...list goes on...

 

all these team members need their own special sheets that contain their data...

 

the model (when done well) has an infinite amount of data useful for many many different disciplines...

 

In VW cloud, I would just invite everyone in and they can harvest all they want...

 

vs me saving pdfs to a shared Dropbox, or Bluebeam Revu and posting to Youtube.

 

and when I make an improvement to the model I need to start the process all over again...all the sheets posted yesterday are outdated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just occurred to me that your experience with people struggling to use the desktop VW, or Skype, or Bluebeam or what have you is likely to cause e a similar result when expecting folks to harvest their own data set from your model, not to mention what's to stop them from harvesting data they should be nowhere near? Talk about a potential security nightmare…

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, mjm said:

 not to mention what's to stop them from harvesting data they should be nowhere near?

 

It's always seemed to me that a fundamental issue with the concept of a 3d model from which details can be harvested is that you have to then build the *whole* of that model accurately (at least up to a given level of detail). This is different from a skillfully prepared set of 2d drawings which allow certain details to be implied (or explained in notes) instead of every single permutation having to be drawn fully. Or indeed, where certain things aren't drawn, it's implied that whoever is building it is responsible for making sensible decisions at a detail level (or asking the question if unsure).

(This is in the context of architectural drawings, probably less relevant to other disciplines)

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, mjm said:

cause e a similar result

 

yes i think you are correct...people are learning Skype and learning bbr but it takes about 2 months for enough critical mass of people to cause the others to feel left out so they end up joining eventually... 

 

so my job in all this is that i have become a type of "communicator coach"  or "collaboration coach" seems like it is a job all by its self...

Share this post


Link to post

so the bottom line is...model is changing hourly...sheets take time to make AND circulate...

 

then as soon as the right parties get the pdf they are working off old information...

 

do i hired someone to keep refreshing the sheets every few hours and posting to Bluebeam Revu & deleting the old?

 

if so then any markups the team made on the old needs to be copied to the new...it can be done with a select all...

 

everything needs to be real time & centralized...until then i need to hire a sheet maker/BBR manager..

 

781952246_ScreenShot2018-06-05at3_05_15PM.thumb.png.03c643960c7d1b6076c4a7bb4d284fda.png  

Share this post


Link to post

Perhaps I have mentioned these articles before in another discussion but I'll mention them anyway as they do have some relevance to the issue of exchanging information as discussed in this topic:

 

The Steep Challenges Facing MBE Adoption (MBE = Model Based Engineering)

 

Reflection: What are Drawings? (i.e. 2D drawing documentation)

It sounds like we'll be dealing with 2D sheets for quite a while, it sort of aligns with digitalcarbons issue with the sheets.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

they also nail it on 'the copies are a snapshot in time'...(which it also true for any pdfs during design)...everyone I am work with is working on outdated information...

as soon as i post a set of pdfs on Bluebeam Revu they are outdated...

 

this means that team members are spending time to digest a set of pdfs and then take the time to mark up the pdfs...

 

then at the end of the week i get the mark-ups back then i try to implement into model???  when we have a goto meeting that friday!!!

 

sorry...i cannot stop modeling & wait for people to process static information...the team needs too log in and look over my shoulder to solve problems...

 

 

 

Edited by digitalcarbon

Share this post


Link to post

I got 2 tech support people in my drawings looking at issues that i posted 60min ago...sorry guys but this is state-of-the-art.

 

(the yearly subscription is 3x as much...so fair is fair)

 

678766427_ScreenShot2018-07-30at11_43_43AM.thumb.png.2fc1ef1df3ad1d75f5fa06a90fa03566.png

Edited by digitalcarbon

Share this post


Link to post

Also, there is only one way to work in MCAD..this is a plus and a minus...again I cannot even come close to the models i do in VW in MCAD

Share this post


Link to post

this was sent in to vw tech after i was having fun with the VGM...and yes ...if VW worked like an addictive video game then they would need to spend less time on selling it...

 

1905826252_ScreenShot2018-08-06at6_32_37AM.thumb.png.5cc24eabb2b21385b25647cbfbe50987.png

Share this post


Link to post
On 5/8/2018 at 3:35 PM, digitalcarbon said:

I'm in the design development phase of a project and into deep deep modeling...

 

people on the team want constant updates of the model and key configurations...

 

the only way they can get/see this is if I stop modeling and make sheets...

 

need sheets for the Structural Eng, the communication person who makes brochures, etc, the designer who wants volumes...list goes on...

 

all these team members need their own special sheets that contain their data...

 

the model (when done well) has an infinite amount of data useful for many many different disciplines...

 

In VW cloud, I would just invite everyone in and they can harvest all they want...

 

vs me saving pdfs to a shared Dropbox, or Bluebeam Revu and posting to Youtube.

 

and when I make an improvement to the model I need to start the process all over again...all the sheets posted yesterday are outdated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where is Nomad in this scenario? If you’d send them a link they have a fortnight to watch the file, right?

Share this post


Link to post

Browser based Collaboration Layout Earth

A way to get into a browser based collaboration site w/o disrupting everyones workflow.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, digitalcarbon said:

Browser based Collaboration Layout Earth

 

This would be awesome if you’d be able to have it like a reference file in your drawing and then by making it a project file all members would have access.

But why only 2D? It would make a huge benefit fot let’s say trade shows as well! Designers, builders, safety people, electricians, you name it!

Or interior designers: you zoom in at your clients house and use it with point cloud and AR in Nomad!

 

Let’s go!! 🤙

Edited by Jan-Burger TROOST

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


 

7150 Riverwood Drive, Columbia, Maryland 21046, USA   |   Contact Us:   410-290-5114

 

© 2018 Vectorworks, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Vectorworks, Inc. is part of the Nemetschek Group.

×
×
  • Create New...