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digitalcarbon

a case for browser based CAD

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you made the VGM too good and now EVERYONE wants to see the model...its a big big hit...all the cad people on the team are yielding to the model...

 

once done with the model, then they will make their 2d drawings to represent the final.

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1 hour ago, digitalcarbon said:

you made the VGM too good and now EVERYONE wants to see the model...its a big big hit...all the cad people on the team are yielding to the model...

 

I do see your PoV & your work is always an inspiration and what you've covered is great for order of magnitude stuff however; for our firm we need to have control & sign off. 

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Maybe these two articles might be of some interest for some (the 2nd one is the link from the comment at the bottom of the first article's page)

1. The steep challenges facing MBE (Model Based Engineering) adoption: http://www.upfrontezine.com/2018/04/upf-977.html

2. Legal implications of models and drawings: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/legal-implications-models-drawings-rob-snyder/

 

The latter article is not just about legal implications but also about the differences between models and drawings and why there is still a use for drawings as they are about communicating concepts in a way that models still can't at the moment.

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It started with not being able to cut and paste in VW worksheets...

 

1177435086_ScreenShot2018-05-11at9_34_10AM.thumb.png.1c704c8553483e63601e0c8d06da4ff7.png

 

could not cut & paste the symbol name into the work sheet...as shown above.

 

was ready to blame VW...

 

restarted and ALL my apps said this...

 

240733547_ScreenShot2018-05-11at8_16_05AM.thumb.png.16525ecc652aedb85e22fb341fec092c.png1186576273_ScreenShot2018-05-11at8_47_40AM.thumb.png.fbb8f4cbdc81a055f68f6aad77e992d9.png

 

every single app...NOTHING worked...

 

this fixed it...

 

https://techwiser.com/fixed-macos-error-you-cant-open-the-application-because-it-may-be-damaged-or-incomplete/

 

 

 

I have never experience this type of fail in all my life.

 

 

 

 

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Was contemplating what it would take to get up and running again had a fix not been found. (2hrs search and fix)

 

dropping $3500+ on a new mac pro just to run my VW?

 

Onshape (cloud based cad) I could have gotten by with a chrome book...

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now that I have experienced "death" and came back...i'm thinking that 5 chrome books scattered around, attached to cloud based cad,  is safer than my single mac pro.

 

My entire office is locked up in that thing...yes I have dropbox etc...but to KEEP running is another story...I would have been down for several days had I needed to buy another mac pro.

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one last thing...the work i do CANNOT be done in Onshape.  Architectural work cannot be done in that program...the only advantage is the cloud ability which has its pros and cons..

 

also only the VGM can handle the large models that I am working on...cloud base cad has not overcome this hurtle.

Edited by digitalcarbon

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@digitalcarbon did you receive the email survey regarding the concept of VW running in a web-browser?

 

Quote

BASIC PRODUCT CONCEPT:
Vectorworks in a web-browser would:

be a version of Vectorworks running in a web-browser

require an internet connection

require no installation

require no update (will always run the latest version of the software)

store your design data in the cloud

allow you to access your design data anywhere, on any device, on any platform 

We value your insight and feedback and we can't wait to journey toward the new world of design work together.

 

The only thing missing I think is any emphasis on not having files to manage.

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@Christiaan no...but i think they know my feelings...

 

to be fair, i though the whole VW in a browser idea was totally dumb a few years back...this was before i started to work on really big jobs where the model was central to all the disciplines...then pow i saw the "light"

 

also Onshape CANNOT run big models yet...the models  i make are too big  so VW needs to find a way to run the VGM in the cloud w/o any dumbing down...

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i also thought iPads were a dumb idea also...why would anyone need such a thing?  you had a iPhone and a laptop...

 

but now...i have one and use it a lot

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22 hours ago, Christiaan said:

BASIC PRODUCT CONCEPT:
Vectorworks in a web-browser would:

be a version of Vectorworks running in a web-browser

require an internet connection

require no installation

require no update (will always run the latest version of the software)

store your design data in the cloud

allow you to access your design data anywhere, on any device, on any platform 

We value your insight and feedback and we can't wait to journey toward the new world of design work together.

 

Ahh yes - More hyp in my email.

 

"Lets get the boffins onto something else we can 'fanfare' at the Design Summit" (as none of them want to go back to stairs, roofs, doors, windows..........).

 

15 hours ago, line-weight said:

I got the email survey!

 

 (and completed it)

 

So did I, but I didn't think I fitted the intended 'sales profile' (maybe a better outline of the benefits might have been more persuasive?)

Then theres (got to be) some downside. Are you going to trust your company's life blood to a cloud. Most clouds in the adverts are white and fluffy. In the UK ours are grey and tend to p*££ on me at the worst moments. (Recent News -Tell VisaCard you are worried about their vulnerable system!! ) 

 

You maybe can tell I'm not such a happy bunny. I've decided to let VSS go as I can't see the value in it.

When I bought (back) into VW (v2017), I was enthusiastic that my 'investment' would repay, but not having any 'on-line' problems, not needing any training (for my low level use), not needing Nomad, Cloud storage etc. etc. and feeling that the product doesn't get 'repaired' as it should before moving on to another fanfare, has made me (yes, reluctantly) cancel.

 

Plus the 'weight' of VW as a software package - yes hugely capable (Since MiniCad I wouldn't recommend anything else), but if I could buy into parts and have a discount for the bits I wouldn't use (lets face it, can't get to grips with) ever, I maybe could rethink my personal 'value'. The licensing aspects have been discussed before and I appreciate its difficult to split it into certain packages and sell into the different markets without the 'cross-over' parts either being too great or too scant for individuals' and companys' requirements. So there's no fix for my predicament.

 

I could do with a 'leavers survey'. You know, the one were it says 'we're sorry to see you go'. But I'm only a small fish.

 

Have I done this at the worse possible time? Was I about to find all the niggles me and my new chums on the Forum fight with were to be (finally) fixed with v2019? I'd be please to receive comments, but it wasn't my intention to highjack this thread.

 

Best regards

 

 

 

 

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I'm sure we all got the survey, they do have our emails.

 

It will be a really long time before we trust the cloud-kluge with interactive mission critical systems. I travel to sites without wifi or even cell coverage! Instant updates simply means new bugs without a rollback option. I use VW for the features it has (and works), not what it might get.

 

Plus our biggest clients are virtually forcing us into Revit. I might go for a cloud based conversion tool that really worked.

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While I’m not 100% against a browser-based Vw, my main issue with it even being discussed in such a survey is that it would take Developer and Design Engineering time and resources away from fixing and improving the desktop version.

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im currently work on a 3 million dollar project with 15 people.  not a big project...

 

it is fast tracked and information is changing so quick (with just 15 people) that prints issued are obsolete in 24hrs...

 

decisions are being made on old information... kiss of death...

 

projects need to be model centric & done in real time...

 

the only simple way to do this is browser...

 

sometime in the future, a daring company will develop a browser based cad system (VW, Autodesk, etc) and it will struggle...

 

then a forward thinking client will wave off the concerns of having it cloud based for the benefits of a realtime model centric team.

(Client to fabricators with just in time delivery)

 

this will shave off months on a project and save millions...

 

the project will then be showcased...and then everyone else will be scrambling to catch up.

 

(this is a typical technology scenario that has been repeating during the last 100 years or so)

 

 

 

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Revit has the industry bottled up with their complete package system...

 

the model centric realtime browser will bypass this antiquated paradigm...

 

Revit will then try to catch up by doing their own Browser based system and they will have the same trouble as Solid Works is having in converting to a browser based real time system. (to much legacy)

 

'the size of a company (Revit, Solidworks) can also be its weakness...'

Sun Tzu - The Art of War (not really but it sounded cool...)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If VW could develop a way (for starters) to have the VGM in a browser and then our models upload to it at night (like the way dropbox works) then that could solve the fears that people have on trusting all their information on the cloud...

 

it would not be total real time but could work...we would still need powerful computer on our desks

 

then start to give the browser viewer more and more ability until all work could be done...

Edited by digitalcarbon

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I'd say that's what we have now, with your backup of choice. And the viewer needs massive help.

 

40ish years ago Autodesk gained dominance in the market by not having copy protection on student versions. Many in the USA think AC is the only CAD. Architects and engineers tend to be business conservatives and the safety of a massively dominant company was too good to avoid. A few competitors have taken over a few niches over the years but AD rules architecture. Worse, the biggest firms that have the power to define their own rules stick to AC the hardest. 

 

The truth is that better technology will not convert the masses in a short time. When bug fixes top the user wish list, a paradigm shift won't make them happy. I see it as selling out the committed users for new users that want flashy functions.

 

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12 hours ago, rDesign said:

While I’m not 100% against a browser-based Vw, my main issue with it even being discussed in such a survey is that it would take Developer and Design Engineering time and resources away from fixing and improving the desktop version.

 

 

Yes if doesn't have the means to draw new customers and new revenue then I'm not sure why it's being considered either.

That said we have regular clients who use visio over the top our PDF base plans. I'm sure there would be money to had letting us share drawings directly with more tech savy clients. 

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15 hours ago, rDesign said:

it would take Developer and Design Engineering time and resources away from fixing and improving the desktop version.

 

sort of...in the end it would free up all the time they spent now trying to make VW run on Window & Mac and the newest versions of all the operating systems...

 

every time there is a new Mac OS release the tech board explodes with "can VW run on High Sierra or whatever" happens every release...

 

then what about the VW release notes every time you upgrade telling you the minimum hardware needed to run...and then you are still not sure...

 

then the tech board again explodes with a "which hardware should i get to run VW"  

 

Im sorry, but the above concern is short sighted...(really, i do not mean any offense)

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the survey that VW sent out may not convey the total experience...

 

right now (for my Stainless Steel fabrication drawings) i'm collaborating in real time with 3 people by using a could based system.

there have not been any hardware issues or anything...everyone just gets an account (free) and i can invite them in...up an running in 60 min...

 

AFTER you experience THAT, then your view point changes...

 

I literally walked around the house saying "wow...wow...wow" realizing the pent up potential of having my VW shared in such a way...

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Its interesting reading all the different points of view here about the idea of browser based cad. I think the bigger picture is not necessarily focussed on architecture and that's why many of you don't see the potential. I'd be surprised if architecture is VW's biggest market.

 

Its unlikely a browser based version of VW could replace VW in its current form. But it would be very suitable to things like -

  1. Furniture design
  2. Jewellery design or any other small design market linked to 3d printing
  3. Mechanical design, which used to be part of VW and there have been rumours of adding it back in
  4. Entertainment design. If I could "rent" a browser based version of VW by the week for when I had an assistant working for me
  5. Props design
  6. Outside manufacturers who wanted to share their products as VW content
  7. Exhibit design where graphics designers and other collaborators might want to visualize graphics and other elements in context
  8. Public art projects where 3d visualization is needed

I'm sure there are many other potential users. I can especially see its usefulness if its possible to sign out a portion of a larger file, something that has been made possible by project sharing. Someone could just build geometry that would become part of a larger file/model. Being browser based would also allow for cloud based solutions for generating walkthroughs and other processor intensive tasks.

 

I've used VW for so many different tasks, from designing jewellery up to design work on Olympic Ceremonies. I suspect that any browser based version would be scalable and targeted to multi-discipline designers.

 

Kevin

 

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