Jump to content
Andrew Davies

3DConnexion Mouse

Recommended Posts

Yes, that is totally ok.

That is why it is most times locked in my cupboard again.

 

I am a bit sorry for my Enterprise,

as I am aware that its chances to meet a suitable user/partner from there are pretty small.

But that's life.

 

Other Enterprises may have a better partners and lifes.

Edited by zoomer
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Just tried the Navigator out - only quickly as I need to dive into Excel and finish a budget :(

 

So far - VERY pleased.  As expected, only text, not icons on the display when using with Vectorworks - but that is no big deal for me.

 

LOVE the extra physical buttons (Delete, space, Tab etc which I didn't have on my Spacemouse Wireless Pro)

 

The 3 saved view keys though are great - They will be REALLY useful.  Hold down one of View 1 to View 3 and you get the saved view dialogue box.  Then pressing that same key briefly takes you to that saved view.  Once a view is saved, holding it down a second or two again lets you redefine that view.  I can see me using these A LOT - especially as it is so quick to set / redefine a view.

 

Also so useful having left / right, top / bottom, Front / Back views under your thumb.  (On my Spacemouse Pro I used them a lot, but you could only do 3 views - not 6 as I can now)

 

Very pleased.  Will add more when I have used it more.

 

I also got the CAD mouse - jury still out on that, think I may be going back to my Apple Magic Mouse - but we will see.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Fit to object button is one of my favorites. Also, I think I added a change projection command to one of the view keys and that I use a lot. Basically all I use is perspective now, I guess I abandoned isometric views since navigation is not really for that. As you noticed, the whole environment is set in Vectorworks for moving around the model as the first person, settings for other modeling programs are based on rotating the object, I guess it is ok if I am designing a wrench tool but not intuitive for architectural buildings.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Luis M Ruiz said:

....settings for other modeling programs are based on rotating the object, I guess it is ok if I am designing a wrench tool but not intuitive for architectural buildings.

 

The problem with this approach is lots of us using VW aren't actually designing architectural buildings..... I need the ability to work easily on individual objects and on larger, composed spaces. This was one of my big issues when VW initially started supporting these 3d mice, initial support was designed around walkthrough mode. Walkthrough mode is only useful for a small segment of my design work.

 

Kevin

 

Edited by Kevin McAllister
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Luis M Ruiz said:

all I use is perspective now, I guess I abandoned isometric views since navigation is not really for that. As you noticed, the whole environment is set in Vectorworks for moving around the model as the first person, settings for other modeling programs are based on rotating the object, I guess it is ok if I am designing a wrench tool but not intuitive for architectural buildings.

 

Well,

that modality preference in the whole VW development is clearly visible,

at least, since it this is the only option since latest SP.

 

And I think the majority of users also agrees that first person/Walkthrough mode is preferable.

I couldn't imagine, for example@digitalcarbonbeing able to live and work without it at all.

I personally just get ill by this, I could vomit on my Cintiq after 3 minutes.

 

But at least I can and did mirror the Axes of my Navigator to keep my lunch inside.

 

May be that this modality preference is also the reason why there is still no proper Zoom Tool in VW.

(letting aside not working in a non-tool-interrupting way like STRG+MMB or MMB do)

The current option either exists in a questionable 1st Marquee Mode

(zoom out with the Marquee ?!)

or a 2nd nearly useful Mode, which is in fact simply a Walkthrough Mode again, with its permanent

acceleration behavior.

I heavily miss a standard Zoom Tool when Scroll Wheel Zoom isn't available or not working

adequately in CAD.

(like for Magic Mouse, Wacom Remote, Pen Usage, ...)

 

 

But Luis,

what did you before the 3D Connexion Devices where available.

Did you always renounce of the STRG+MMB temporarily Fly Over (Object Mode) and used the

(tool intermitting) Walk Through Tool instead ?

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Kevin McAllister said:

 

The problem with this approach is lots of us using VW aren't actually designing architectural buildings....

 

Kevin

 

 

 

I think,

beside my rollercoaster handicap,

that is just a personal preference about how you see things.

 

I see on comments here that the large majority of those who use 3D Navigators,

are totally excited about the "Helicopter" Mode.

 

Luis sees the whole Architecture and dives into it.

 

For me, if I want to see the back of my coffee mug - I turn it around - and do not walk around it.

If I have to examine a real Building, I am forced to "walk through" of course.

But for my work on a computer screen, even I mostly work on larger Building projects,

I still see them as Models in a smaller scale.

So I want to turn my Model into my view and have no ambitions to walk around them.

 

Also I mostly work on a part of it only like with clip Volume. And, I mostly get a design and have not

much influence on it so seldom a need to really go inside and see it as a whole.

 

But your mileage may vary.

 

 

 

 

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, zoomer said:

 

But Luis,

what did you before the 3D Connexion Devices where available.

Did you always renounce of the STRG+MMB temporarily Fly Over (Object Mode) and used the

(tool intermittent) Walk Through Tool instead ?

 

I used them all and all the time, shortcuts and all and I thought I was fast and precise.........now I drive in style :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I guess the beauty in this is that if we work in this 9 hr a day we must enjoy the time seating in front of the screen.

To modeling, there is not a single approach, the device settings is what makes the difference. Adjust them to your liking and we are ready to roll.

 

Here are mine.

 

Screen Shot 2017-09-07 at 11.37.38 AM.png

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, Luis M Ruiz said:

 

I used them all and all the time, shortcuts and all and I thought I was fast and precise.........now I drive in style :)

 

 

OK, I understand,

you also worked the old way in the past and didn't miss something,

but with newer tools and options you realized there is a better way for you.

 

I am quite picky and realize immediately while doing things that something is missing or wrong,

long before I have any idea what it is.

Then I start thinking about what it could be and sometimes find a reason or a potential improvement.

In case of the standard view rotation, or flyover as it is called in VW, such realization never happened

for me so far. Even after 3D Navigators came.

 

But I like that many others do see improvements and like themselves helicoptering.

 

 

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, zoomer said:

 

 

OK, I understand,

you also worked the old way in the past and didn't miss something,

but with newer tools and options you realized there is a better way for you.

 

I am quite picky and realize immediately while doing things that something is missing or wrong,

long before I have any idea what it is.

Then I start thinking about what it could be and sometimes find a reason or a potential improvement.

In case of the standard view rotation, or flyover as it is called in VW, such realization never happened

for me so far. Even after 3D Navigators came.

 

But I like that many others do see improvements and like themselves helicoptering.

 

 

 

I have the background of architecture design originally and also use helicopter mode mostly with 3D mouse.

Zoomer,

Could you try some of the sample applications provided by the 3d connection driver and see which navigation mode makes the most sense to you?

I am trying to find any users that have different preferences to the people who like helicoptering and see what's the mental model behind it.

 

Thanks!!

Edited by Chih-Pin

Share this post


Link to post

That is easy.

It is the same as the flyover tool in VW does.

Or standard view rotation in Modo and with little oddities in C4D.

(Or Microstation, Archicad, Bricscad, ....)

 

I am not sure if I got the helicopter mode in VW right. Immediately changed axes assignment.

I know only two 3D Modes for Space Navigator.

 

1.

The Walkthrough Mode,

which I don't like,

where the Navigator moves your Head/Camera around the Objects.

(I think also standard VW 2017 SP4 Mode)

Like rotating Handle ccw, will make you (or your camera) look to the left, so the Object will

disappear on the right end of your screen

 

2.

The Flyover Mode,

which I prefer as said above,

where the Navigator handle rotates the Object.

 

Rotate the Handle ccw will rotate your object ccw,

pull the Handle to you, the Object will come near to you (= Zoom in),

pull it up, the model rises up.

And vice versa and the like.

 

 

And the best implementation for me is in Modo :

 

a)

Center of Rotation is the center of the view.

(There will appear a mark while navigating).

Somehow this does not work in VW, it always rotates about VW origin only for whatever reason

and it is very unlikely that my geometry of interest is ever there,

nor is the Navigator able to use the different mode settings of Flyover Tool.

 

Maybe, when there is a selection, to rotate about the selection as a center.

But nearly not necessary because a selection as point of interest for view rotation

may be very likely already in the middle of your view !

 

b)

The Lock Horizon Option is activated.

To prevent any Orbit Rotation (called Rolling ?)

(Like VW does, yeah !

But C4D unfortunately not, although it can prevent from Orbiting, for standard Mouse View Rotation)

 

c)

Modo found the right speed and acceleration settings that a 3DConnexion Device works noticeably smoother

than in any other App, out of the box.

 

 

BTW,

in a 2D View (= all orthogonal views)

Navigator does just the exact same as in chosen 3D Mode, except any rotation.

Like when in 3D Flyover Mode,

pull the Handle to the right - will push your Model/Plan to right.

 

But that is a matter of taste if you prefer to mirror Axis Ddirections in driver or better like

Handle up/down to 2D Zoom or prefer push front/back directions to Zoom.

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
On 2017-03-30 at 8:58 AM, JimW said:

It seems like it invokes the command in Vectorworks for "Front" view, and then obeys the default projection setting. I agree that when using a device like this a different behavior would be desired. I'm going to eat dogfood with my basic SpaceNavigator for awhile (nerd term for using this specific thing a bunch personally) for my next few projects and get a clear picture of what can be customized via a combination of device and Vectorworks settings and what we need to add more control for.

 

I'm giving my Space Navigator another try with VW2018 (I've tried to make it work the way I want in every version since maybe 2013. I've figured out a lot of it through trial and error. The help is more of a testament to what it can do rather than how to do it and the last Youtube video announcing the driver improvements for 2017 is just marketing. Neither of them give the nuts and bolts of making it work.

 

I'm trying to solve the issue described here and wondered if anyone has any advice. Is there any documentation about some of the items in the 3dConnexion application menu associated with VW pictured below?

 

59b957989560f_ScreenShot2017-09-13at9_04_32AM.png.3659513824a5cfe8a8e4227c9c36f803.png

 

Some of the items are unclear (how do "Save View 1 / Restore View 1" work for example, are these independent of "Saved Views" in VW? I tried adding a View 1 to my file without success), others could use labelling consistent with VW (ISO1 and ISO2 for example) and other items are completely missing (Top/Plan?). Ideally I would like to be able to toggle between a perspective, OpenGL rendered view and an Orthographic view (Top/Plan, Front, Side) in wireframe. Switch Projection sort of does this but why would I ever want to toggle through every mode it presents.

 

Does VW remember your preference for which mode you like in 3d+Perspective. I want VW to always act as it does in 3d non-perspective, with the object centre. Its confusing that VW doesn't just use the currently selected Flyover mode.

 

Thanks,

 

Kevin

 

 

 

Screen Shot 2017-09-13 at 9.05.35 AM.png

Share this post


Link to post

1.

Kevin, we both seem to be the only VW users not liking Helicopter Mode.

I think you like the same "Flyover-like" Mode as I do.

 

With VW 2017 SP 4 latest 3D Connection single Mono-Mode,

with these Settings it works for me like in the past :

 

Screenshot-24.jpg.662e63cdeb8bc914d7e578ddb014daee.jpg

 

 

BTW

I prefer that "wrong" only option - that I can "correct" to my liking in the driver setteings,

much more than previous multi-modes which automatically switched, depending of

perspective vs orthogonal and such things.

 

 

2.

Saved Views.

For me it worked like that :

- Press View 1 Button for 3 seconds

- it will save a new saved view with a similar name

- change your View Window

- Press View 2 Button for 3 seconds

- it will save a new saved view with a similar name

- ....

 

Now you have created 2 saved views in VW which you can go to or switch between

by pressing the View 123 Buttons for a short period.

 

I am not sure what will happen if you change the names of those saved views created,

or if you can manually create a saved view in VW with a compatible naming scheme

that Enterprise may be able to use ....

 

 

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, zoomer said:

1.

Kevin, we both seem to be the only VW users not liking Helicopter Mode.

I think you like the same "Flyover-like" Mode as I do.

 

With VW 2017 SP 4 latest 3D Connection single Mono-Mode,

with these Settings it works for me like in the past :

 

Screenshot-24.jpg.662e63cdeb8bc914d7e578ddb014daee.jpg

 

 

BTW

I prefer that "wrong" only option - that I can "correct" to my liking in the driver setteings,

much more than previous multi-modes which automatically switched, depending of

perspective vs orthogonal and such things.

 

Thanks Zoomer. For me the defaults for orthogonal vs perspective are not the same. Not sure why. The more I play, the more I feel like it may be file specific. If I program a button to use the Switch Navigation function, I can switch them to be the same. The Space Navigator is very sensitive to switching between open files.....

 

7 minutes ago, zoomer said:

2.

Saved Views.

For me it worked like that :

- Press View 1 Button for 3 seconds

- it will save a new saved view with a similar name

- change your View Window

- Press View 2 Button for 3 seconds

- it will save a new saved view with a similar name

- ....

 

Now you have created 2 saved views in VW which you can go to or switch between

by pressing the View 123 Buttons for a short period.

 

I am not sure what will happen if you change the names of those saved views created,

or if you can manually create a saved view in VW with a compatible naming scheme

that Enterprise may be able to use ....

 

I only have a basic Space Navigator with 2 buttons so the view thing is a bit more complex. It seems that somehow VW is tagging specific saved views as being linked to the Space Navigator. When it says "View 1" its not a saved view named "View 1" nor is it the 1st saved view on the list. It specifically has to be saved using the "Saving View 1" command. I'm going to try creating a template that has a pair of saved views in it and then removing the "Saving View 1" commands from my radial menu.

 

Kevin

 

Share this post


Link to post
19 minutes ago, Kevin McAllister said:

I only have a basic Space Navigator with 2 buttons so the view thing is a bit more complex. It seems that somehow VW is tagging specific saved views as being linked to the Space Navigator. When it says "View 1" its not a saved view named "View 1" nor is it the 1st saved view on the list. It specifically has to be saved using the "Saving View 1" command. I'm going to try creating a template that has a pair of saved views in it and then removing the "Saving View 1" commands from my radial menu.

 

Ok, this gets weirder and weirder. If I create a new, clean file and press the button I've assigned to "Restore View 1" it will attempt to restore the previously saved view even though its not even present in the file...... 

 

Edit: These "saved" views seem to be per session even though they get saved into a document. If you restart VW the ability to recall them is gone on the Space Navigator.

 

KM

 

Edited by Kevin McAllister

Share this post


Link to post

 

13 minutes ago, Kevin McAllister said:

Thanks Zoomer. For me the defaults for orthogonal vs perspective are not the same. Not sure why. The more I play, the more I feel like it may be file specific. If I program a button to use the Switch Navigation function, I can switch them to be the same. The Space Navigator is very sensitive to switching between open files.....

 

oooooh,

 

It's a long time since I was in a real perspective mode.

Enterprise has a menu button to switch between these modes.

But I set this to CMD as you need this on Mac.

 

But yesterday I tried re-activating the menu button (on another button)

and checked if there are any modes to switch - which there aren't.

It just opens the option menu with entries for Locks, Dominant Filter and Driver Settings Link.

 

Do you use already VW 2018 in multi pane modes ?

There it will stuck for me in either 2D vs 3D modes from the last active Pane, if I change to another

pane with a different 2D or 3D Mode and such things.

Edited by zoomer

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, zoomer said:

oooooh,

 

It's a long time since I was in a real perspective mode.

 

Haha me too. Only when working with cameras. I need the true orthogonal views so switching back and forth is too cumbersome. I was just giving it another try - you know, a new version, another try.... :D

 

Kevin

Share this post


Link to post

zoomer -

 

is the main reason you don't like the helicopter mode that it induces motion sickness?

 

I have sympathy as someone prone to motion sickness (I'll feel nauseous after a second of trying to read something in my hands  in a moving car) but luckily i don't seem to have issues using VW and the 3dconnexxion devices.

 

I'm surprised you don't also have problems with the orbit-type navigation you seem to prefer.

 

I wonder if motion-sickness issues will become more prominent as this kind of navigation (on big screens or even VR) becomes more widely used in CAD applications. It would be interesting to know if this is already a design problem that needs to be considered.

 

Regarding my preference for helicopter vs orbit modes - I too am an architectural user, largely navigating within spaces inside complicated objects rather than the space around an isolated object. Also, objects where the direction of gravity is highly significant.

Share this post


Link to post

 

2 hours ago, line-weight said:

is the main reason you don't like the helicopter mode that it induces motion sickness?

 

I think it is 2 reasons :

- Motion Sickness which I can't do much against

- I really like standard view rotation and never wished for something else.

 

Same here with reading in a car.

And yes, the problems with VR seems to be another level of potential sickness.

 

Rotating the model is a completly different thing.

If, then the model gets sick, not me.

 

 

Motion sickness means that your your different sensors to check your location and orientation

in space send contradictory information to your brain.

(Eyes say : we are driving, ear and muscles say : no, we don't)

Brain thinks, we start hallucinating > must have eaten something poisoned.

Brain to stomach => Undo

Comes from deep evolution, still very useful but not compatible with 3D work and VR.

Individually more or less pronounced.

 

 

Before Space Navigators all Apps had the same View Rotation Tools.

And I always had some walkthrough option as an extra somewhere else. I tried these of course at

some point but never had any use for it.

I still want and need to rotate my View, or better, the Model inside that View.

3D Navigators are just a more haptic way to do so.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
43 minutes ago, zoomer said:

Motion sickness means that your your different sensors to check your location and orientation

in space send contradictory information to your brain.

(Eyes say : we are driving, ear and muscles say : no, we don't)

Brain thinks, we start hallucinating > must have eaten something poisoned.

Brain to stomach => Undo

Comes from deep evolution, still very useful but not compatible with 3D work and VR.

Individually more or less pronounced.

5

  

This is a really good and interesting way to describe motion sickness. :)  

There is an active research area in Human Computer Interactions called "Embodied Interactions" in which the researchers study how does human coordinate their sensory inputs with the motion outputs continuously. Different people have various reactions to the same interaction settings. Researchers are still trying to find the common ground in this area. One of the interesting research came to my mind -- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2858226

 

To be honest, I spent some time to connect my haptic feedback from the 3D Mouse to what I see on the screen and get used to it (probably couple years on and off using it). However, once I connect them together, I can navigate to the right orientation much faster than a traditional mouse and keyboard settings. BTW, I'm pretty easy to get motion sickness as well.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks, I read and will watch the video.

I have to try again if I survive a walkthrough.

It is just so tedious to switch settings in that driver.

 

I am a little concerned about the having 2 modes as I use navigation with key and pen

as least as often as a navigator.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, zoomer said:

I am a little concerned about the having 2 modes as I use navigation with key and pen

as least as often as a navigator.

1

Hi zoomer, I totally see your dilemma, a friend of mine had encountered the same decision, also had a tablet and a pen, unfortunately, we lost him to the dark side,

"you must unlearn what you have learned"

Share this post


Link to post

He went to Autodesk ?

 

I never had any complaints with view navigations in all 3D Apps.

Zoom + Pan + Rotate is all I need, no matter which device.

(temporary non-Tool-interrupting)

 

Then came VW that decided to use MMB instead of any of the "real" MBs.

For such an important all time used function.

OK, So I bought a CADMouse from 3D connection to get a "real" button for this.

So far VW ok.

 

Now I use a Pen Display that works fine for every App.

The Pen even has a "real" MMB for VW Rotate + Pan.

But must realize that (only) VW has no "temporary non-Tool-interrupting" option

to Zoom in/out, beside a Scroll Wheel.

My 3D Navigator is just a temporary workaround to overcome that specific limit in VW.

Would it be such an effort to add a CTRL+SHIFT+MMB Zoom option,

like Zoom Tool 2nd Mode but without all time walkthrough-like acceleration

and non-tool-interrupting ?

 

(There are a lot of other common input devices that don't offer 3D-useful Wheel Scrolling

like Apples Magic Mouses, Touch Pads or standard Pen Tablets)

 

 

Letting Num+Text input beside, even Enterprise still doesn't allow to reject my keyboard

completely. So why not let my left hand simply rest on keyboard if I don't miss anything.

View Navigation comfort and ergonomic with Pen or Mouse for me is equal to a 3D

Navigator. (except that VW zoom thing of course)

But that is just my personal taste.

I am happy with anyone enjoying his or her 3D Navigator, Space Mouse, Enterprise.

 

I'm still thinking that currently Mouse+Keyboard is the optimal input method.

But will never give up the fun to draw a rectangle with my pen directly on my screen.

 

Share this post


Link to post
31 minutes ago, zoomer said:

 

I'm still thinking that currently Mouse+Keyboard is the optimal input method.

But will never give up the fun to draw a rectangle with my pen directly on my screen.

 

1

 

I agree that Mouse+Keyboard (+3D Mouse) is still the best way to interact modern CAD tools, including Vectorworks. 

However, I did research on the stylus interaction before, and also agree the fun and creativity it provides.

 

btw - does your tablet support multi-touch? 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

 

7150 Riverwood Drive, Columbia, Maryland 21046, USA   |   Contact Us:   410-290-5114

 

© 2018 Vectorworks, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Vectorworks, Inc. is part of the Nemetschek Group.

×