2024 - Fence Tool Improvements

[Tom W.]

22 minutes ago, Zsombor said:

Thank you, I could manage it by editing the workspace. Strange that I had to do it manually. 

 

Hmm when I open the stock Architect + Landmark workspaces the Fence Tool is present in both of them. I just assumed you were using a custom workspace.

 

Is the new Railing Tool missing too?

[JonKoch]

Is it possible to create custom infill panels? I haven't quite figured out how to do that. 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@JonKoch, yes, it is. You can create a 3D symbol and use this as the panel. This is how the panels in the Vectorworks libraries are created.

[JonKoch]

1 minute ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

@JonKoch, yes, it is. You can create a 3D symbol and use this as the panel. This is how the panels in the Vectorworks libraries are created.

Hi @Katarina Ollikainen Yes! I figured this out last night! Amazing tool! Today will be a day of fence creation. Thank you!

[hollister design Studio]

@Katarina Ollikainen quick question, how does one flip the swing of a gate? direction of a fence?

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by hollister design Studio

[JonKoch]

20 hours ago, hollister design Studio said:

@Katarina Ollikainen quick question, how does one flip the swing of a gate? direction of a fence?

 

@hollister design Studio It's in the settings under General. Where it says "fence face" you can choose left or right depending on the direction you are drawing, so it's important when you are drawing the fence for the first time to make sure you note the direction of the line. You can always change it after but kind of easier to do it from the start. 

[hollister design Studio]

@JonKoch thanks, found it.

 

For anyone wondering where to find the gate flip controls that are not on the OIP...

 

Flip controls are located in the reshape tool under the "ELEVATION / EDIT MODE"

 

With that mode selected if you click on the gate control point you get a dialog box that has "Flip Across Fence" and "flip Along Fence"

 

You unfortunately can select only ONE option, and then you need to click OK to activate.

If you need both, you need to do this twice - not as clean as the door flip... 

 

 

Hey VW help pages, it took me a couple of reads in the help pages to figure this out.

There isn't ANYTHING relevant and searchable for gate "flip" - until you hit the "Click to show/hide the parameters" button.

I tried cntl+F on various pages and eventually found the info after giving up and just reading everything starting at the top.

 

 

[Tom W.]

On 12/11/2023 at 6:32 PM, hollister design Studio said:

You unfortunately can select only ONE option, and then you need to click OK to activate.

If you need both, you need to do this twice - not as clean as the door flip... 

 

In fact it looks like you can click either 'Flip...' button as many times as you want + it will remember your choices when you click 'OK'. But this is really horrible functionality: you shouldn't be able to press 'action' buttons + they have zero effect until you exit the dialog. I can't think of any other instance where this occurs. You're not setting preferences, you are performing a command. Yuk.

 

[PieConk]

Top Rail? I did not see anything in the video about that, was it removed? Anyone have a work around for this menu item from previous fence/rail tool? If you create a rail to achieve this all the rails must conform to how they are justified. 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@PieConk, this is one of the things on the Fence 2.0 list, along with capping and coping - I can't say when it will be implemented, though. We wanted to avoid making the fence too complicated - it is already relatively complex, and it's always a weigh-off between setting detail and usability. Right now, all rails will get the same settings, both for end justification and offset.

The railing tool focuses on settings different from those of the fence. Can you achieve what you need with that?

[Katarina Ollikainen]

On 1/3/2024 at 8:34 PM, Tom W. said:

In fact it looks like you can click either 'Flip...' button as many times as you want + it will remember your choices when you click 'OK'. But this is really horrible functionality: you shouldn't be able to press 'action' buttons + they have zero effect until you exit the dialog. I can't think of any other instance where this occurs. You're not setting preferences, you are performing a command. Yuk.

Always sorry to create a Yuk-response. I have marked this as 'look at' for the 2.0 Fence. The difference to the door is that gates are part of the fence, compared to separate objects in the wall. When you flip a door, you're doing it immediately. When you flip a gate, you're in a dialog editing something that belongs to the whole fence, and no changes are being made until you exit the dialog.

[Tom W.]

3 minutes ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

Always sorry to create a Yuk-response.

 

I feel bad now! Hope you saw elsewhere that I also said it was an absolutely amazing tool!

 

4 minutes ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

The difference to the door is that gates are part of the fence, compared to separate objects in the wall. When you flip a door, you're doing it immediately. When you flip a gate, you're in a dialog editing something that belongs to the whole fence, and no changes are being made until you exit the dialog.

 

Totally get this. But then perhaps the 'Edit Gate' dialog should then be offering you 'Left Side' + 'Right Side' radio buttons for the across fence options + 'Hinged Front' + 'Hinged Back' radio buttons for the along fence options...? Then you would be setting preferences (to be actioned once you exit the dialog) + not performing an action (which is what it appears you're doing at the moment but aren't).

[line-weight]

These yuk responses, which of course must be disheartening for the VW employees who put so much hard work into developing these complex tools, could be avoided if the company were to take user testing and interface design seriously, but it's very clear that the people at the top don't. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Tom W., absolutely no problem 🙂. 

Your idea for settings is a good one - I'll see how and when we can implement it.

 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@line-weight, The fence tool has been available for beta testers since last summer, which would be user testing. The feature has been out for general use since the 2024 release in September - this is the first comment I've received about this design aspect, and we're looking at it.

I'm grateful for anyone with constructive criticism and comments - that's how we improve. In this case, I agree that the feature could be more user-friendly - it’s also an area where I’ve other ideas I would like to see implemented (based on another tool I’m working on right now).

Sometimes, things are discovered after prolonged use; sometimes, a eureka moment hits you right before release. The latter can be the most frustrating for our team - it's far too late to change it, but you already have something even better in mind. For the fence, my biggest regret was to include scaling of 3D symbols.

There will always be room for improvement, but there will also always be someone who does not like what we create. This doesn't mean we shouldn’t always try to produce the very best. We have a team of brilliant engineers making our ideas come to life - they put so much effort and energy into our product, and (IMHO) they create some fabulous, innovative features.

The 'people at the top' take UI and UX seriously, and we are constantly working on keeping the tool approach consistent across the Vectorworks application. The TechPub team (who create the Help file) is invaluable in this - they look at every feature from a unique viewpoint as they service all industries and look at each and every dialog while writing instructions for how to use them.

The process of developing a new feature is really an effort by all levels and teams. This is what makes it so much fun to do. 

Also, we now have a product planner specialising in UI/UX, @Stephan Moenninghoff. Last year, he did an enormous job with the workspace redesign, but even there, we have the same situation - some love it, and some are less enthusiastic. Some find it making their life much more straightforward, while others think we have made some wrong decisions. And I'm sure Stephan already has a list of things he would like to tweak.

 

All this doesn't mean everything is perfect, and I can only reiterate our gratitude to all of you who gives us constructive feedback.

 

[line-weight]

18 hours ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

@line-weight, The fence tool has been available for beta testers since last summer, which would be user testing. The feature has been out for general use since the 2024 release in September - this is the first comment I've received about this design aspect, and we're looking at it.

I'm grateful for anyone with constructive criticism and comments - that's how we improve. In this case, I agree that the feature could be more user-friendly - it’s also an area where I’ve other ideas I would like to see implemented (based on another tool I’m working on right now).

Sometimes, things are discovered after prolonged use; sometimes, a eureka moment hits you right before release. The latter can be the most frustrating for our team - it's far too late to change it, but you already have something even better in mind. For the fence, my biggest regret was to include scaling of 3D symbols.

There will always be room for improvement, but there will also always be someone who does not like what we create. This doesn't mean we shouldn’t always try to produce the very best. We have a team of brilliant engineers making our ideas come to life - they put so much effort and energy into our product, and (IMHO) they create some fabulous, innovative features.

The 'people at the top' take UI and UX seriously, and we are constantly working on keeping the tool approach consistent across the Vectorworks application. The TechPub team (who create the Help file) is invaluable in this - they look at every feature from a unique viewpoint as they service all industries and look at each and every dialog while writing instructions for how to use them.

The process of developing a new feature is really an effort by all levels and teams. This is what makes it so much fun to do. 

Also, we now have a product planner specialising in UI/UX, @Stephan Moenninghoff. Last year, he did an enormous job with the workspace redesign, but even there, we have the same situation - some love it, and some are less enthusiastic. Some find it making their life much more straightforward, while others think we have made some wrong decisions. And I'm sure Stephan already has a list of things he would like to tweak.

 

All this doesn't mean everything is perfect, and I can only reiterate our gratitude to all of you who gives us constructive feedback.

 

 

I know it's easy for me to be an armchair critic, but whatever the current system is for ensuring good UI design, it doesn't work.

 

If someone like me, a lay person, can spot UI inconsistencies everywhere then VW are not allocating sufficient resources. There needs to be some kind of tyrannical pedant (or perhaps a team of them) who looks carefully at every aspect of anything that is introduced (well, and everything that's already there too).

 

The thing that's been raised in this thread, this should not have slipped through the net. Of course if you give someone a button that says "flip" they are going to expect that pushing the button will make the gate flip. Because (correct me if I'm wrong) that's what happens everywhere else in VW: if you press a button then the thing the button does happens instantly. If there's a dropdown with options, or somewhere to type a numerical value, then we know that usually this means the changes will take effect when the dialogue closes. That's fine, because it's what we expect. You close the dialogue by pressing OK. When you press OK it closes the dialogue and commits the changes. Again, pressing the button is what makes something happen.

 

@Tom W. above has already suggested a better way of doing this, with radio buttons. I'd suggest something like that too. But it shouldn't need users to point this out. This is a very basic issue of consistency and expected behaviour. This absolutely should have been picked up before release.

 

I do recognise that there are certain things where the best way to do something is debatable, and you have to choose one way or the other and some users will disagree with the choice. But this example, it's not one of those. I don't see why anyone would want to have a button that doesn't do anything until later, which gives you no preview of what's going to happen later, and gives you no record of how many times you've pressed it. There are no possible advantages of this. It simply is bad UI design, and a professional software package shouldn't be getting released with stuff like this.

 

Again, I don't want to come across as criticising the people who develop & code the tool. I'm criticising the system VW has (or doesn't have) in place for thoroughly checking things for UI issues. That checking needs to be done by someone who has not had any involvement in the development of the tool itself, so that they can come to it in the same way a user might come to it.

 

 

Edited January 8 by line-weight

[PieConk]

Haven't been able to find a related discussion-- suggestion for menu options

 

Would be cool if we can exclude certain layers from the gravity effect (like a site model modifier). Reason being, if the fence runs under a roof line, the fence then snaps above the objects over it, not just sticking to the site model terrain. Anyone have a work around for this? I suppose just make a new fence line that does not follow grade in settings is the easiest way for now. 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@PieConk, this is not determined by layer, but with classes. By default, all classes are active to receive a fence. If you have a building with eaves and want a fence to go below, all the way to the wall, simply uncheck the class of the building/roof in the dialog.

The only two things that the gravity mode never works on are site modifiers and plants, no matter what class they're in.

[Michael Siggers]

Hi

 

So any instruction on how to use this?

 

Trying to create a Mesh fence and the dialogue for 'Infills' is greyed out.

 

Also, under 'General' Tab, 'Infill Type', according to the help section at the bottom there should be an option for 'Soft', which it states is used for Chainlink, Mesh, and similar. NO OPTION EXISTS.

 

Vectorworks is extremely frustrating and I'm sure whoever writes this imagines the most complicated way of doing it without any instructions. Would have taken me 2 minutes in Sketchup, but here I am 1 hour later in Vectorworks.

 

PLEASE POST SOME DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS.

 

Mike

[Michael Siggers]

On 1/7/2024 at 4:01 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

We have a team of brilliant engineers making our ideas come to life - they put so much effort and energy into our product, and (IMHO) they create some fabulous, innovative features.

But do they actually then try to use it, in the real world?

[Michael Siggers]

On 1/7/2024 at 4:01 PM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

@line-weight, The fence tool has been available for beta testers since last summer, which would be user testing. The feature has been out for general use since the 2024 release in September - this is the first comment I've received about this design aspect, and we're looking at it.

I'm grateful for anyone with constructive criticism and comments - that's how we improve. In this case, I agree that the feature could be more user-friendly - it’s also an area where I’ve other ideas I would like to see implemented (based on another tool I’m working on right now).

Sometimes, things are discovered after prolonged use; sometimes, a eureka moment hits you right before release. The latter can be the most frustrating for our team - it's far too late to change it, but you already have something even better in mind. For the fence, my biggest regret was to include scaling of 3D symbols.

There will always be room for improvement, but there will also always be someone who does not like what we create. This doesn't mean we shouldn’t always try to produce the very best. We have a team of brilliant engineers making our ideas come to life - they put so much effort and energy into our product, and (IMHO) they create some fabulous, innovative features.

The 'people at the top' take UI and UX seriously, and we are constantly working on keeping the tool approach consistent across the Vectorworks application. The TechPub team (who create the Help file) is invaluable in this - they look at every feature from a unique viewpoint as they service all industries and look at each and every dialog while writing instructions for how to use them.

The process of developing a new feature is really an effort by all levels and teams. This is what makes it so much fun to do. 

Also, we now have a product planner specialising in UI/UX, @Stephan Moenninghoff. Last year, he did an enormous job with the workspace redesign, but even there, we have the same situation - some love it, and some are less enthusiastic. Some find it making their life much more straightforward, while others think we have made some wrong decisions. And I'm sure Stephan already has a list of things he would like to tweak.

 

All this doesn't mean everything is perfect, and I can only reiterate our gratitude to all of you who gives us constructive feedback.

 

Can you issue a full set of instructions please.

 

Trying to create a Mesh Fence, and the option it states I need to select for a Mesh fence, called 'Soft in the Infill Style under the General Tab, DOES NOT EXIST.

 

Wasted over an hour so far trying to create a Mesh Fence, like the attached.

 

Mike

[Tom W.]

7 hours ago, Michael Siggers said:

Also, under 'General' Tab, 'Infill Type', according to the help section at the bottom there should be an option for 'Soft', which it states is used for Chainlink, Mesh, and similar. NO OPTION EXISTS.

 

You are right, this message is confusing:

 

I believe the Infill Type you need is Rails Only + then in the 'Rails and Fabric Infill' pane you select one of the 2D symbols that is just a line the desired length i.e. the height of the mesh (in fact it can be any length as you can scale it in the style settings...). Set it to 'Continuous Rail' + the tool extrudes this line to create a flat surface that a texture needs to be applied to: so you need to find/create a texture representing your mesh panels + apply this to the 3D rails in the fence style attributes settings. 

 

An alternative approach if you don't have a texture would be to model one of the mesh panels in 3D + save it as a symbol + create a 'Panel, Pre-Constructed' infill-type fence. This option means the fence will be stepped by default but this is probably how you'd want it anyway - even if using Rails Only - since the fence in your photo uses rigid panels?

 

The tool relies entirely on symbols - either extruded 2D profiles or 3D modelled objects - it doesn't generate any geometry of its own as such (from scratch). Helpful to have this in mind when approaching it.

 

I only have fairly limited experience with the tool so far so all this is only my understanding of it. Someone else might have other ideas.

 

Be patient. The VW2024 Fence tool is a very powerful tool + a vast improvement on the previous Railing/Fence Tool. @Katarina Ollikainen has produced some excellent learning material on it but like everything in VW, it takes time to explore, a bit of trial + error, some questions on the Forum, etc to get up to speed with it. But to me this is testament to the quality + capability of the tool rather than a failing. It is also brand new so there will inevitably be some teething issues that need ironing out but VW are pretty responsive when things are pointed out to them, this thread being an example of that. No doubt @Katarina Ollikainen will get back to us on the 'soft infill' reference in the help text.

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Michael Siggers, have you watched the fence tool video? If not, please follow the link below. If you still have questions after that, please message me, and we can meet on Zoom and go through them.

Our aim is always to make our features as intuitive as possible - however, this has to be put into the context of who our audience is and what you want to produce. If you're a BIM manager, you'll need very different functions than if you want to do a quick-and-dirty concept model. You might also have different prior knowledge and experience of similar features.

I've noted the help text issue and will look into this. I think the message should have been updated after the tool's terminology changes. Thank you for noticing.

 

The fence in the image above looks like a prime candidate for a pre-constructed panel, as @Tom W. suggests. I am, of course, not aware of your priorities - how you decide to go will depend on this.

 

https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/overview/view.php?id=5719

[The Hamma]

I may have missed this but I have modified a wood gate to be on the correct side of the fence but I can not make it flush out with the face of the gate or elimate the gap between the center of the post and the gate.  Anyone have a way to do this?

 

Fence Gate.vwx

Edited April 12 by The Hamma

[Tom W.]

You need to add 3D Loci to the gate symbol. See attached. You basically do something like measure the distance from the centre line of the Fence to the outermost point on the gate (i.e. the latch symbol) then times this by two + that's the distance the loci need to be from the front of the latch. At least I think that's right... 

 

I didn't do anything with the gate posts as I wasn't sure what you were looking for there.

 

Fence Gate_TW .vwx

 

This is one of my fences:

 

 

The gate works fine when first inserted but the offset is wrong when flipped across the fence... Something to bear in mind.