Layer Scale question - why not just 1:1?

[zoomer]

@Andy Broomell

 

Why not ?

[Mark Aceto]

22 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

Andy what exactly does enabling 'Dominant' do? I've never noticed any difference one way or the other...

 

From memory (of the device currently sitting in a drawer), only one axis at a time will rotate.

[Mark Aceto]

2 hours ago, bcd said:

Convert to Annotation Object command

 

The what now?

[Mark Aceto]

On 12/16/2022 at 9:48 AM, yasin2ray said:

Does anyone just set their layer scale to 1:1?

 

2 types of layers:

• ConnectCAD Schematic Layers (default stock template)
• AutoPlot Truss Tape layers (autogenerated)

These have to be 1:1

 

However, I would go nuts if the rest of my design layers were 1:1 for all of the reasons others have pointed out above.

 

The great thing about VW is that if a user wants to draw exclusively on 1:1 design layers for some cadforsaken reason, they have that option. It's not a "one size fits all" solution.

[Tom W.]

14 hours ago, Mark Aceto said:

 

From memory (of the device currently sitting in a drawer), only one axis at a time will rotate.

 

I think my 3DC devices might soon be going into a drawer too... Things are fine in VW2022 if I stick to the 3-versions-back driver I'm on but not so good on VW2023 + absolutely awful if I update the driver. Out of interest @Andy Broomell would you mind letting me know what driver you're on? My problem in VW2023 is that I can no longer get the 'Switch Navigation' command to work which effectively renders the SpaceMouse useless as I have no way of setting it to Target Camera Mode which is the mode I use. I can't see any other way of setting the navigation mode other than doing it through the device itself...?

 

If I update the driver then countless other things don't work, whether I'm in VW2022 or VW2023. I've had the SpaceMouse for 18 months + the CadMouse for 2 years + both have been absolutely fine until now.

 

I have been speaking to 3DC + they are going to get back to me...

 

[line-weight]

2 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

I think my 3DC devices might soon be going into a drawer too... Things are fine in VW2022 if I stick to the 3-versions-back driver I'm on but not so good on VW2023 + absolutely awful if I update the driver. Out of interest @Andy Broomell would you mind letting me know what driver you're on? My problem in VW2023 is that I can no longer get the 'Switch Navigation' command to work which effectively renders the SpaceMouse useless as I have no way of setting it to Target Camera Mode which is the mode I use. I can't see any other way of setting the navigation mode other than doing it through the device itself...?

 

If I update the driver then countless other things don't work, whether I'm in VW2022 or VW2023. I've had the SpaceMouse for 18 months + the CadMouse for 2 years + both have been absolutely fine until now.

 

I have been speaking to 3DC + they are going to get back to me...

 

 

I was wondering yesterday if I should update the 3DC driver, sounds like I'd better not!

 

This is what I'm currently on:

 

[Tom W.]

Pretty much the same as me:

 

 

3DC insisted I had to update to the latest driver (10.7.4) in order to use the devices with VW2023 but as I say, whilst things are marginally bad with 10.7.0 on VW2023, with 10.7.4 they were disastrous...

 

 

[line-weight]

Is the only thing that you can't get "switch navigation" to work or are there other problems?

 

I haven't used VW2023 a lot yet, so hadn't noticed any issues, but I see, now I check, that "switch navigation" doesn't work whereas it did in VW2021.

[Tom W.]

37 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Is the only thing that you can't get "switch navigation" to work or are there other problems?

 

I haven't used VW2023 a lot yet, so hadn't noticed any issues, but I see, now I check, that "switch navigation" doesn't work whereas it did in VW2021.

 

In VW2023 using the 10.7.0 driver, the 'Switch Navigation' command in fact activates 'Fit View', and 'Fit View' activates 'Top View'. Everything else works as it should as far as my settings are concerned.

 

If I try the 10.7.4 driver there are loads of problems: none of my macros work + many of the mappings appear as something completely different when you go to use the device.

[line-weight]

Hm, I seem to remember some of these button mappings changing in the past when upgrading to a new version of Vectorworks. 

 

As the problem appeared with a change in VW version, does this not suggest that some of the problems are caused by things at the VW end?

 

That selection between navigation types has always confused me a bit, because in the 3DC settings it's listed as an "application command" along with a bunch of other VW tools, suggesting that it is altering something set up within Vectorworks, and yet as you say, there seems no other way within Vectorworks of changing that setting.

 

When I use the 3DC device, it activates the "flyover" tool but these navigation types aren't listed within the flyover tool anywhere.

 

I think in past threads @Luis M Ruiz has been pretty helpful with 3DC problems.

[Tom W.]

I agree I think it probably is a VW issue. 3DC are looking into it + once they've confirmed I will contact VW. Yes I was thinking @Luis M Ruiz would be my first port of call!

[Tom W.]

No thoughts on this @Luis M Ruiz? I think it was on your personal recommendation that I bought a SpaceMouse in the first place so I'd be interested to know if everything's working fine for you in VW2023! 3DC basically told me the issue is with VW. Thanks.

[Andy Broomell]

My SpaceMouse has been working fine in 2023 but I also don't really use the buttons at all...

[Tom W.]

52 minutes ago, Andy Broomell said:

My SpaceMouse has been working fine in 2023 but I also don't really use the buttons at all...

 

Well that's one strategy I suppose 🤣

[halfcoupler]

I have template sheet layers in A3 and A2 and most of my drawings will fit to them when drawn in 1:100.

So my general setting for all design layers is 1:100 so I see what I will get as print out and how large my drawing will be.

 

But there is one exeption which was not mentioned here, and I wonder If I'm the only one who uses this every day:

It took me months and months of work to define low, medium, and high parts for all my symbols. When I'm talking to collegues and show them that showing up these parts can be attached according to the design layer scales in the documents settings I mostly see question marks in their faces. This function is not really well known.

 

I'm using 1:100 for general drawings, which shows only the medium parts,-  1:50 for implemetion planning, which shows only the detail parts,- and 1:200 for overview planning (general buiding site plans) showing only the low level parts.

 

It's a stony way to get all this working, but once I got it running I don't want to miss it anymore. It's not only a scale according to what purpose the print out is intended, but you can also decide to whom you will send which detail level in order to protect your ideas. (You can also decide to map any of these three detail levels to any viewport unregarded to what scale it has.) Mostly I draw in 1:100 but when I need more accurate details of the symbols to carry on, I'm switching all layers to 1:50, draw what I need to draw with that information and switch back to 1:100 to get a better overview.

 

I think this function is one of the hidden champions in VW and it will not work this way when design layer scales will be skipped in future.

 

Halfcoupler 1:50

Halfcoupler 1:100

Halfcoupler 1:200

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by halfcoupler

[Pat Stanford]

You could also change the auto detail level setting in Document Preferences instead of changing the layer scales.  This could also be scripted so you could toggle these settings and not have to open the preferences dialog.

 

[Tom W.]

5 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

You could also change the auto detail level setting in Document Preferences instead of changing the layer scales.  This could also be scripted so you could toggle these settings and not have to open the preferences dialog.

 

 

I'm not sure I understand. These settings determine what detail level you see at different DL scales if Auto Display Detail Levels is enabled no? @halfcoupler is saying they design at different scales depending on how much detail they want to see. Whereas I am always at 1:50 on the DL so always medium detail level + I only ever change the detail level in viewports.

[Pat Stanford]

What I read Halfcoupler saying is that he normally wants to design at Medium detail at a scale of 1:100.  Sometimes he wants to design at a High level of detail, so he changes all of the layer scales to 1:50 so the automatic detail level will show him the High Detail.

 

Instead he could change the Preferences dialog to be able to get High Detail while still working on the 1:100 layers and then just zoom in as needed.

 

To each his own, but to me this seems less disruptive and less risky than chaining layer scales.

[halfcoupler]

Hi Pat, you are right, thats what I am doing. I havn't got bad experiences with changing all layer scales so far, but writing a script that changes the preferances is an interesting approach.

In the end design layer scales in combination with detail levels are somewhat an "egg-laying wool milk sow" as we say in German... 😉 You can design almost every workflow you want. So this a plead for just leaving the layer scales as they are ...

[Tom W.]

11 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

What I read Halfcoupler saying is that he normally wants to design at Medium detail at a scale of 1:100.  Sometimes he wants to design at a High level of detail, so he changes all of the layer scales to 1:50 so the automatic detail level will show him the High Detail.

 

Instead he could change the Preferences dialog to be able to get High Detail while still working on the 1:100 layers and then just zoom in as needed.

 

To each his own, but to me this seems less disruptive and less risky than chaining layer scales.

 

Aha gotcha thank you. That makes perfect sense. So basically if scripted you could effectively have 'Low Detail', 'Medium Detail' + 'High Detail' keyboard shortcuts (based on you choosing a layer scale + sticking to it)? That sounds like a very good idea. In fact I'm not sure why VW doesn't do it this way in the first place + just have a 'High/Med/Low Detail Level' quick pref on the tool bar...

Edited March 11, 2023 by Tom W.

[halfcoupler]

1 minute ago, Tom W. said:

In fact I'm not sure why VW doesn't do it this way in the first place + just have a 'High/Med/Low Detail Level' quick pref on the tool bar...

The Viewport setting already has this button.

But this button is useless unless High/Medium/Low details are drawn and configuered, which is the main work.

[Tom W.]

2 minutes ago, halfcoupler said:

The Viewport setting already has this button.

But this button is useless unless High/Medium/Low details are drawn and configuered, which is the main work.

 

Absolutely, and I do include a lot of high/medium/low geometry in my symbols (top/plan only mind you, not 3D), and of course Doors + Windows are automatically set up to contain detail level geometry, and Walls too to an extent, in that low detail will turn off the components, but I only ever really consider detail level in viewports + not on the design layer, probably because of the way it is set up to work in VW which is quite convoluted. If there was a simple quick pref to toggle settings (or if @Pat Stanford decides to script it 🙂) I'd probably make more use of it.

[halfcoupler]

4 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

(or if @Pat Stanford decides to script it 🙂) I'd probably make more use of it

 

lol, poor @Pat, trapped into your own trap 😉 😉 😉

 

no worry, for me this can wait until I have learned to do scripting things like this myself.

[bcd]

You don't even need to change the scale when drawing the Symbol. You can draw the representations at will at any scale and simply set their Display Detail Level in the OIP.

 

 

 

 

[Pat Stanford]

Sorry to take so long, but here is the promised script to toggle between two sets of Design Layer Level of Detail settings. Hold down the shift key while running the script to check/change the values for the set that you are changing to.

 

Procedure ToggleLODScales;

{©2023  Pat Stanford - pat@coviana.com}
{licensed under the Boost Software License 1.0}
{https://github.com/boostorg/boost/blob/master/LICENSE_1_0.txt}
{TL/DR Use as you want, attribution for source, No warranty}

{Vectorworks allow Symbols and Plug-in Objects to have components}
{that are defined to be visible at different "Levels of Detail" (LOD)}
{In Viewports, you can specify which level(s) of Detail}
{(Low, Medium, High) are displayed. On Design Layers the only}
{way to control which levels are displayed is to set the VW to}
{adjust the level of detail based on the layer scale. In Document}
{Preferences, you can set the scales above which only Low LOD and}
{Medium LOD are show. For scales smaller than the Medium setting}
{the High LOD is shown.}

{This script automates switching between two different sets of LDO}
{settings. When you run the script it toggles between the two sets.}
{If you hold down the shift key when running the script you are}
{shown a dialog box where you can enter the scale values for either}
{Set A or Set B, whichever is being activated. The current settings}
{are shown as the default values in the dialog box. To check the other}
{Set run the script again with the shift key down.}

{The value is the "denominator" of a 1:XXX scale. For 1:100 scale}
{the value would be 100.  For 1/4" scale the value is 48}
{there are 48 1/4" steps in 1 foot. 1" scale is 12, 3" scale}
{is 4.}

{Lightly tested. Use caution. There be Dragons.}
{No Warranty Expressed or Implied. Use at your own risk.}

VAR	R538, R539: Real;
	R538A, R538B, R539A, R539B:Real;
	B1:Boolean;
	L1:LongInt;

BEGIN
	SetPref(6808, TRUE);
	SetPref(6811, TRUE);
	R538A:=Rpstr_GetValueReal('R538A',100);
	R539A:=Rpstr_GetValueReal('R539A',25);
	R538B:=Rpstr_GetValueReal('R538B',50);
	R539B:=Rpstr_GetValueReal('R539B',10);

	R538:=GetPrefReal(538);
	R539:=GetPrefReal(539);
	
	If R538=R538A THEN
		BEGIN
			B1:=Keydown(L1);
			If Shift THEN 
				BEGIN
					PtDialog('Enter Set B Layer Scales for Low (X) and Medium (Y) Detail', Concat(R538B), Concat(R539B), R538B, R539B);
					Rpstr_SetValueReal('R538B',R538B);
					Rpstr_SetValueReal('R539B',R539B);
				End;				
			SetPrefReal(538,R538B);
			SetPrefReal(539,R539B);
		END
	ELSE
		BEGIN
			B1:=Keydown(L1);
			If Shift THEN 
				BEGIN
					PtDialog('Enter Set A Layer Scales for Low (X) and Medium (Y) Detail', Concat(R538A), Concat(R539A), R538A, R539A);
					Rpstr_SetValueReal('R538A',R538A);
					Rpstr_SetValueReal('R539A',R539A);	
					Message('Set A',CHR(13),'Low Detail: ',R538A,CHR(13),'Medium Detail: ',R539A);	
				End;			
			SetPrefReal(538,R538A);
			SetPrefReal(539,R539A);
		END;
	SetPref(95,NOT GetPref(95));
	SetPref(506, GetPref(506));
	RedrawAll;
End;

Run(ToggleLODScales);