Francois Levy Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 I am embarrassed to say this has been plaguing me for years; there's likely something simple I'm missing. It seems that most of the time by attributes palette reverts to white fill, black line, even if I set it to all attributes by class by default. Why does it revert on its own, and how can I make it stop. I see analogous behavior with text. For a long while text has been by default right-justified, even if I deliberately set my default to Calibri 8pt left. Thoughts? 1 Quote Link to comment
Kevin K Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 François Check your settings, regarding "use at creation" Normally I just leave "None" as my default class when drawing anything....then, if desired I will put whatever it is into a specific class. You may have your None class (if you work as I mentioned above) set to 'use at creation'. ? check that out...if you uncheck 'use at creation' you should be able to set your attributes to whatever you wish, and it will maintain those settings. Be careful though...there are certain advantages to using the 'use at creation' option. and there are reasons NOT to do so. Quote Link to comment
Kevin K Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 Oh, as a thought, open a new blank file to test out what I mentioned….before you tweak the use at creation option in whatever file you have open…. Quote Link to comment
Francois Levy Posted November 6, 2021 Author Share Posted November 6, 2021 Thanks Kevin. Since None is my default container class, I don't have it's attributes set to use at creation, unlike almost all my other classes. However, why should that matter? If I have nothing selected, and set my Attributes to class settings, it should not revert to white fill and black line. Not to mention the text issues. Quote Link to comment
Kevin K Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 François No it should not…..did you try opening a new blank file to test it out? you should consider that. Could be some voodoo in the file you are working on that doesn’t allow you to do what you wish, regarding the attribute settings. Quote Link to comment
Kevin K Posted November 6, 2021 Share Posted November 6, 2021 Ohhhhhhhh.....another thought. I didn't quite catch in your message where you said " If I have nothing selected, and set my Attributes to class settings"... Try NOT having attributes set to 'use class settings' as a test. Jut have everything set to the default classes..and not using ''class style"...see if that makes a difference.... Again, I would do this in a new blank file to test it.... Quote Link to comment
Monadnoc Posted November 7, 2021 Share Posted November 7, 2021 On 11/6/2021 at 10:03 AM, Francois Levy said: I am embarrassed to say this has been plaguing me for years; there's likely something simple I'm missing. It seems that most of the time by attributes palette reverts to white fill, black line, even if I set it to all attributes by class by default. Why does it revert on its own, and how can I make it stop. I see analogous behavior with text. For a long while text has been by default right-justified, even if I deliberately set my default to Calibri 8pt left. Thoughts? The same thing happens to me. And has been happening... for years. I finally gave up on trying to figure out why, and just formed the habit of manually re-setting it to always be all attributes by class every time I start a session. And then multiple times throughout the session. Although it still bites me in the back every once in a while, as soon as I forget to do that. Ridiculous. But that's just the way it is, and always will be. It just randomly changes back to white fill, black line, all by itself. Quote Link to comment
Francois Levy Posted November 7, 2021 Author Share Posted November 7, 2021 That's been my exact experience, too. I'd love to file a bug rather than be resigned about it and accept it as a fact of life, but it's not really reproducible, just really annoying. Quote Link to comment
line-weight Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 This happens to me all the time too! But I am never sure if it's me at fault, or VW. Quote Link to comment
Boh Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 So it sounds like you all want your attribute palette to be set to use class attributes by default but you don’t want to use them “at creation” for the none class. can someone explain why not have “use at creation” set? Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 I also use it for ALL Classes, including None Class. Seems it does not destroy e.g. Library Resources that usually have all geometry on None Class and Attributes by Object. (As they are already on None Class ?) I also have a few Container Classes for own Symbols and PIOs. But usually all their content is on explicit Material Classes and by Component. So if the Container Element is on None or Container Class with Attributes by Class that does not harm. But maybe I missed something. Quote Link to comment
line-weight Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 5 hours ago, Boh said: So it sounds like you all want your attribute palette to be set to use class attributes by default For me this is one of those things where VW seems to behave not in the way I expect - in that I go to draw a new object and the attributes are not what I feel they "should" be, according to what I had done previously. That might be that I am expecting them to be the defaults but they aren't - or I am expecting them to be something else but they are the defaults. I can't pin down exactly when/how this happens, all I know is that it does happen, and it's quite likely that VW is doing everything entirely consistently and logically while the fault in expectations comes from me. But somehow there is something about the way it behaves that constantly trips me up. 2 Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Matt Panzer Posted November 8, 2021 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted November 8, 2021 Do any of you use the Create Similar objects command (Command/Option)? If so, this is a likely culprit. In order to create a similar object, one thing the command does it change the default attributes so you can create similar objects with similar attributes. However, a caveat of the functionality is that it does not know when you're finished creating similar objects. It simply activates to appropriate tool, sets the tool's default parameter values, and sets the default attributes for you. So, the behavior of this functionality is by design. 1 Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 Matt, never use Create Similar command, but I frequently experience the problem others refer to. I always set the Attributes Palette to the default value "all by class," chosen with no objects selected, but it frequently changes to another setting, and I haven't noticed any particular pattern. Quote Link to comment
Francois Levy Posted November 8, 2021 Author Share Posted November 8, 2021 Matt, I also do not use Create Similar. I do option-drag a lot, though. In the morning or mid-afternoon if I haven't had my coffee I don't even need the option key; I just drag. 1 Quote Link to comment
zoomer Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Matt Panzer said: Do any of you use the Create Similar objects command (Command/Option)? I use it a lot. But I just tried and it seems to keep Attributes by Class Settings for me. Just showing the current new Classes colors and such. But the by Class round arrow Icons seem to stay nevertheless. Quote Link to comment
Boh Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 Maybe there is a custom tool script you are using that changes the attributes palette settings? I too notice that my default attributes palette settings seem to change for some unknown reason but it’s not actually a prob for me as I have “use at creation” on for almost all classes incl the none class. I always keep the none class as my active class and class objects after they are created. As they have class attributes when they are created, when the are reclassified they take on the new classes attributes. Quote Link to comment
P Retondo Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 (edited) Boh, and others, here's a question: do the Attribute Palette default settings trump the "use at creation" directive in class settings, or vice versa? If there is no clear priority at the algorithmic level, that could be a problem. As a user, it's a problem to me that there are two possibly-conflicting default settings in different places. Later: Okay, so I just did a quick test. "None" class set to "use at creation." Set default attributes to red fill. A "None" object was created, resulting in the None class fill (white). The default red fill setting did not change. A "Dimension" object (not set to "use at creation") had a red fill. So, "use at creation" trumps the attributes palette default settings, but that potential conflict did not change the default attribute palette setting. Leaving me to wonder why there is even a "use at creation" setting in the class definition, if the attributes palette can be set to default to class attributes. Edited November 8, 2021 by P Retondo 1 Quote Link to comment
E|FA Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 I seem to remember a webinar where they explained what "use as creation" is also needed for "by Class" Data Visualization to work, and not just whether the class attributes are applied when the object is originally created (as described in the help system: e.g. item 7 at https://app-help.vectorworks.net/2022/eng/VW2022_Guide/Textures/Concept_Applying_textures_by_class.htm?rhhlterm="use at creation"). I can't find any other documentation. I'm wondering if anybody at VW can weigh in and explain what else "use at creation" does and how it interacts with default attributes, and whether the issues we're seeing is working as designed + user error, a bug, and/or whether a wishlist item would help. Quote Link to comment
Boh Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 40 minutes ago, P Retondo said: Leaving me to wonder why there is even a "use at creation" setting in the class definition, if the attributes palette can be set to default to class attributes. I guess, as is often times with vectorworks, there is always more than one way to skin a cat. For my work flow using class attributes extensively and the "use at creation" setting activated allows me to ignore the attributes palette for about 80-90% of my work. In fact the default attribute palette settings don't matter at all to me. Having both "use at creation" and "by class" attributes palette defaults I think this is just a way of VW accommodating different workflows. 1 Quote Link to comment
Jesse Cogswell Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 This may be an unrelated issue, but there has been a bug with Vectorworks for a LONG time (and still in VW2022, though I admit I don't have SP1 installed yet) that I posted about here: Any time you open an Edit Texture window, it kicks the fill and pen sections of the Attributes palette out of "By Class." So, if you use textures a lot, this is the likely culprit. 2 Quote Link to comment
Benson Shaw Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 @Jesse CogswellNever noticed that texture edit change to classes. Thanks for the heads up! Saved views also can change class settings. -B Quote Link to comment
line-weight Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 14 hours ago, P Retondo said: So, "use at creation" trumps the attributes palette default settings, but that potential conflict did not change the default attribute palette setting. I think this might be the reason I seem not to have "none" class set to "use at creation" whereas I do have it set for other classes. Because sometimes I want to be able to draw something with attributes different to the "none" defaults. I suppose I could still draw it as none, and then change its attributes after it's created, but that could be cumbersome when I want to draw a bunch of things with non-default attributes, which aren't all in the same place. Thinking about it, the attribute I most often want to change is whether something has solid fill or no fill. I want a polygon to have solid fill whenever I want to subsequently extrude it, for example, whereas in other situations I want to draw a polygon without fill so that it doesn't obscure stuff behind it. 1 Quote Link to comment
line-weight Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 Having just played around with settings, here is one thing I think can cause confusion. When an object is selected, the attributes palette shows the attributes of that object. But when no object is selected, what does it show? If you asked me that without letting me go and try it out, I think I'd say that it shows the attributes that will be applied to the next object drawn. But actually that's not the case. If I change the active class to one that has "use at creation" on, then that's what determines the attributes of the next-drawn object, not what is shown in the attributes palette. I would argue that this is counter-intuitive because if i don't have a "use at creation" class active, then the attributes palette *does* show what will be applied to the next-created object (assuming nothing is selected). So in other words, anyone who commonly draws with "none" active and without "none" being set to "use at creation", gets used to the idea that the attribute palette shows you what the next object is going to look like. But if you then switch to another class, with "use at creation" active, this behaviour changes. The attributes palette continues to show whatever you last chose there, instead of what's going to be applied to the next object. And of course, once the object is drawn, and remains selected, it shows those attributes. I think this confusion would be avoided if, when you selected a "use at creation" class, the attribute palette switched to show the attributes set for that class, because that's what's going to apply when you draw something. Go back to "none" class and it reverts to whatever you last selected manually. By the way VW is not the only application where I find some confusion between "attributes of selected object" and "attributes of next drawn object". There's a drawing application I use that treats this in a different way but can still be confusing. It makes me wonder if it would be best just to have two separate locations for this information: one that shows attributes of currently selected object, and one that shows the attributes chosen for the next-drawn object. In fact it often feels to me that it's inconsistent that certain attributes of a selected object are shown in the attributes palette while the rest are shown in its object information palette. Isn't there an argument that all attributes should be shown in the OIP? Then the attributes palette would have a clear purpose - to choose what will be applied to the next thing you draw. 4 Quote Link to comment
E|FA Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 9 hours ago, line-weight said: I think this confusion would be avoided if, when you selected a "use at creation" class, the attribute palette switched to show the attributes set for that class, because that's what's going to apply when you draw something. Go back to "none" class and it reverts to whatever you last selected manually. @line-weight It looks like you managed to reverse engineer how the system works. Thanks. As you mentioned, it would be much clearer if nothing is selected the Attributes Palette should always show the attributes that will be used for the next object drawn. I can post this as a Wishlist item if others agree. 1 Quote Link to comment
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