Revit Thoughts

[Jershaun]

One could say that Revit is a user friendly database while Vectorworks is a user friendly 3D modeler with a user unfriendly database attached.....

VW is far from a user friendly modeller. In fact it's modelling capabilities are slow, cumbersome and inacurate (see attached) but most of all, the modelling tools are out-dated and archaic. The videos below, shows the modern modelling tools available today.

http://www.formz.com/Video/formZ/formz7_ENU/formZ7Videos.html

and

http://www.formz.com/products/formz/formzVirtualArm_640.php?startMovie=00_intro

[Horst M.]

VW is far from a user friendly modeller. In fact it's modelling capabilities are slow, cumbersome and inacurate (see attached) but most of all, the modelling tools are out-dated and archaic.

Thats sooo true and soooo sad.

And its also a pitty, that Nemetschek doesn't commit themself and say something about the Future Roadmap of VW.

Are we facing huge core Funktion change in this area with VW 2013?

given to us in the same beta level as the implementation of C4D Renderer and Parasolids ?

.... all we can do is expect hope and workaround.

Schade

Edited August 11, 2012 by Horst M.

[Kevin McAllister]

I agree completely! ( I originally posted the FormZ 7 links in this thread months ago - http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=163641#Post163641 )

I had an email exchange with Nemetzchek at some point where they maintained their 3D modelling is "best in class". I suspect its all in the nuance. As someone pointed out, Revit is not a modeller so Vectorworks could the be "best in class" for 3D modelling when compared to Revit. I didn't realize how challenged Vectorworks was as a 3D modeller until I started learning Cinema 4D. Now I wish there was a send to Vectorworks command in Cinema 4D.....

Jershaun, your examples really show the differences well. I was surprised to see how much better Vectorworks 2008 behaves. That's really disappointing. Its true that if you have to clean up any geometry in Cinema 4D its almost easier/faster to rebuild it. Sweeps are especially bad for generating too much geometry.

Here's hoping things improve and soon.

Kevin

Edited August 11, 2012 by Kevin McAllister

[VincentCuclair]

Well, I was comparing VWs to other CAD apps, I understand that VWs can't compete with dedicated modeling software.

Have you tried modeling objects and then placing them in the right context in ArchiCAD or Revit, well then you'll see what I mean.

(in Revit for example it is not possible to create a plane or working plane even if you have 3 existing points (at 3 different z-heights) to snap to, believe it or not! You can only define working planes by using existing planes or existing object faces......a lot of help that is.)

Edited August 12, 2012 by Vincent C

[willofmaine]

I was wondering what I was doing wrong in VW 2012 to get such un-curved curves (see attached)...

At least now I know my problem... I was using VW 2012.

It seems VW is at least one step back for every one or two steps forward...

[Jershaun]

@willofmaine

Wow, that's just horrible. The problem started obviously after the implementation of the parasolid engine. 4 versions into the parasolid engine, you would think that this would be picked up by either the programmers or beta testers.

There could only be 2 answers to this, either:

a) the parasolid engine is inferior

or

b) the NemV team don't know how to implement the parasolid engine properly

[Kevin McAllister]

willofmaine, are those rendered in OpenGL?

I'm only curious because most of the rendered geometry problems I've seen occur when Vectorworks is using its own rendering engine (any mode that's present without Renderworks - OpenGL, Hidden Line etc.) not the Cinema 4D engine. The native rendering engine is a big weakness and isn't even consistent between what it renders for display and what it renders in Viewports.

KM

[VincentCuclair]

willofmaine, are those rendered in OpenGL?

I'm only curious because most of the rendered geometry problems I've seen occur when Vectorworks is using its own rendering engine (any mode that's present without Renderworks - OpenGL, Hidden Line etc.) not the Cinema 4D engine. The native rendering engine is a big weakness and isn't even consistent between what it renders for display and what it renders in Viewports.

KM

That would in it's turn mean that there shouldn't be any difference between the 2 versions though?!

Have you checked if all options for smooth rendering are set to maximum quality (or according to your wishes)?

Edited August 13, 2012 by Vincent C

[Benson Shaw]

This undesired faceting (v2012) is discussed in Other Threads

Drawing set to highest conversion settings, max mesh smoothing, OGL at max values and FQRW all produce the faceting in some situations

eg Draw a round gasket with ribbed faces and bolt holes (sweep with holes via solid subtraction or push/pull).

Before the holes are cut, no facets. After holes are implemented, unremovable facets.

No apparent cure for it. Filed as bug. Feel free to file the window wall faceting as bug.

-B

PS This is the Revit thoughts thread. Maybe start this up again as new thread?

Edited August 13, 2012 by Benson Shaw

[Christiaan]

Well, I was comparing VWs to other CAD apps, I understand that VWs can't compete with dedicated modeling software.

Have you tried modeling objects and then placing them in the right context in ArchiCAD or Revit, well then you'll see what I mean.

I'd just like to come into work without dreading using the software we use. Ever since we started using a single-model workflow nearly every week has been disastrous because of some bug or badly designed interface. I've really had it with this program.

[VincentCuclair]

I guess your company probably can't be seen as little league anymore and that probably means moving away from little league software......

[willofmaine]

Kevin,

Those were both rendered in FQRW. Changing the 3D conversion resolution in VW 2012 made no difference that I could see, and the curves are EAPs (not meshes).

[willofmaine]

Is it possible to start a new thread and incorporate the applicable posts from this one in it?....

[Bob Holtzmann]

Well, I was comparing VWs to other CAD apps, I understand that VWs can't compete with dedicated modeling software.

Have you tried modeling objects and then placing them in the right context in ArchiCAD or Revit, well then you'll see what I mean.

(in Revit for example it is not possible to create a plane or working plane even if you have 3 existing points (at 3 different z-heights) to snap to, believe it or not! You can only define working planes by using existing planes or existing object faces......a lot of help that is.)

So true. And have you also noticed the working plane only shows up in 2D "on edge" view, and how it can't be moved or rotated? Objects and offsets can be tied to them, making them even more difficult to work with. Compare this to the Vw Move Working Plane tool, and how it moves and changes orientation in 3D views, and snaps to surfaces. The working plane can also be rotated on axis in 3D.

[Peter van der Elst]

I couldn't find it, but is there also an "Archicad thoughts" thread? I think that this could also make an interesting thread!

[Bob Holtzmann]

So true. And have you also noticed the working plane only shows up in 2D "on edge" view, and how it can't be moved or rotated? Objects and offsets can be tied to them, making them even more difficult to work with. Compare this to the Vw Move Working Plane tool, and how it moves and changes orientation in 3D views, and snaps to surfaces. The working plane can also be rotated on axis in 3D.

And it gets "better" than that. Any Revit 3D object can not be rotated about the X and Y axes. I tried it - can't be done.

[VincentCuclair]

I couldn't find it, but is there also an "Archicad thoughts" thread? I think that this could also make an interesting thread!

ArchiCAD is actually relatively similar to VWs except for the fact that they (probably) have architects connected to their R&D department which in its turn means that most tools work as you would expect when designing a house and they have a single file server based workgroup solution, however it lacks proper 3D modeling capabilities (although I believe there are add-ons for this).

Edited August 15, 2012 by Vincent C

[Peter van der Elst]

Vincent C: Yes I also have the same experience with Archicad. But with the new addition of the morph tool in version 16, I think you can also get better 3d modelling capabilities. Haven't tried this version yet (still no trial?).

Thanks for the reply! (of moet ik zeggen bedankt!) (off-topic I'm also a MSc TU Delft ).

On topic. I'm also curious about VW 2013 and what it will do with all the complaints I have been reading here lately. Still no teaser videos ? :-)

[VincentCuclair]

How big is VWs in NL, I left 2 years after graduating and therefore have no idea?

[Christiaan]

...however (ArchiCAD) lacks proper 3D modeling capabilities.

Really? http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/design.html

Vectorworks no longer has this advantage. It's cheap, that's about it.

[VincentCuclair]

...however (ArchiCAD) lacks proper 3D modeling capabilities.

Really? http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/design.html

Vectorworks no longer has this advantage. It's cheap, that's about it.

That looks promising, however I always found moving around in 3D space a bit clunking in ArchiCAD, (I consider that as important as the 3D tools when drawing in 3D, having said that you can however have several different views open on several screens to help with this).

On a personal note: I always liked ArchiCAD, however VWs UI look and feel have always appealed more, on the other hand the Graphisoft support and local standardization has been tremendous in Sweden, compared to the absolute absence of this for NVs. I'll see how long I can justify sticking with VWs. (The money ends up in the same pockets anyway, what ever the choice might be, don't think I'll move to Revit though.)

[Jershaun]

There are definitely a few things that Revit can't do that vw can, however Revit can do lots more that vw can't do.

Some may think working planes in Revit are very rigid but I think it may be because of our lack of knowledge of Revit (myself included) see video below.

[Jershaun]

Who said Revit can't do modelling

See video below and take note, Revit generates curved objects better than vw.

[Kevin McAllister]

Creating your own parametric shapes, now that's useful.... Revit seems to have more flexibility than I expected.

KM

Edited August 20, 2012 by Kevin McAllister

[VincentCuclair]

Revit is basically only about creating 3D parametric shapes, and then having parametric shapes in parametric shapes in parametric shapes....that's not 3D modeling that's 3D programming........that's the essential difference!