Rhino.Inside for Vectorworks

[elepp]

Now that Rhino 7 was released, they introduced Rhino.Inside. It's a live link between Rhino and another software. There are plenty of advantageous uses cases for having this also in Vectorworks. We need better operability with other software packages and I am not talking import/export features. The data needs to be synced live to make important decisions on the fly.

 

Thnx!

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

1 hour ago, Claes Lundstrom said:

I have to agree with Jeff. Vectorworks needs a serious update of its NURBS abilities

HI Claes

I must admit, I actually agree with Jeff to some extent and that would have possibly come out if we had not turned yesterdays thread into a day time soap opera.  I am very embarrassed and I apologize to the people on this thread.  I should not mix wine, the forum and my pride.

 

There is more than one issue here and that is what makes this so difficult.  So below is what I was working on when Jeff and I got “off topic”.

This ring is either tricky, difficult or not possible for some systems often mentioned over the last few months as a replacement for Vectorworks.  The ring band transitions from flat, to serrated, to square tines and back to flat.  I don't even know if I could do this in CINEMA 4D, but it was a piece of cake in Vectorworks, an hours work.  This could be printed after I reversed some of the polygon Normals.

 

So, the first issue, is why don't Vectorworks 3D modellers know this?  The answer is quite simple, no one told them.  Me telling someone carries no weight as it does not come from Vectorworks.  The answer possibly lies in the points below.

 

Second issue.  Let's suppose there was not a NURBS modelling suite in Vectorworks.  Is there any money in it for them if they were to incorporate Rhino.  They would have to pay Rhino, so a debit there.  Then, they would have to support it with tech support and that cost money, so another debit.  Is there a plus side to this for Vectorworks, they have a bottom line like anyone else.

 

Third Issue.  Who will use it?  Rhino may be easier and more intuitive, but there is a significant learning curve before you start designing Ferraris.  So like the second issue, the "bang for the buck" comes into play.

 

 

[Jeff Prince]

On 4/16/2023 at 6:03 AM, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

Second issue.  Let's suppose there was not a NURBS modelling suite in Vectorworks.  Is there any money in it for them if they were to incorporate Rhino.  They would have to pay Rhino, so a debit there.  Then, they would have to support it with tech support and that cost money, so another debit.  Is there a plus side to this for Vectorworks, they have a bottom line like anyone else.

 

Is there an actual licensing cost to implement Rhino.Inside?  Sure, Vectorworks would have to support it like they do Datasmith and such, but is there an actual price paid to McNeal for allowing this interoperability?  On the customer side, it's free.

 

The real cost to Vectorworks is that of opportunity cost and losing customers.  If their customers are using Rhino as an essential tool because (labor supply, robust grasshopper community, interoperability with Revit, better features, etc...) and Vectorworks ignores this, users moving to a larger market share platform such as Revit becomes the problem for Vectorworks I imagine.

 

On 4/16/2023 at 6:03 AM, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

Third Issue.  Who will use it?  Rhino may be easier and more intuitive, but there is a significant learning curve before you start designing Ferraris.  So like the second issue, the "bang for the buck" comes into play.

 

If you read this thread and others like it, you will come to understand that there is a huge emerging labor pool which is skilled at Rhino.  It doesn't matter what software is "better", it matters if you can find people to use a software to execute work.  When you couple that with the what is happening in Grasshopper and Revit with regards to iterative design in architecture and the incredible things you can do today with parametric detailed design, it's a no brainer why so many firms are creating initial building shell designs in Rhino.  The things happening within the AEC industry with parametric design of non rectilinear forms is pretty amazing.  Does anyone know of a single World Cup football stadium, international airport, or skyscraper made in Vectorworks?  These building types are common in Rhino + Revit and constructed.

 

On 4/16/2023 at 6:03 AM, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

This ring is either tricky, difficult or not possible for some systems often mentioned over the last few months as a replacement for Vectorworks.

 

Did you know there is a huge community of jewelers who use Rhino and an entire industry of support tools that plug into it specifically for jewelry making?  Perhaps not the best example to bring to the discussion 🙂. Rhino runs circles (and NURBS) around Vectorworks when it comes to this kind of modeling.  It's like bringing a brown banana to a dual when the opposition is in a gunship.

 

I'm not trying to convince you Paul, that's clearly not going to happen and nor am I interested.  You are very heavily invested in Vectorworks and C4D, and that is okay.  Vectorworks doesn't have to worry about folks like you who bought the ring and said the vows, you guys will stay to the end kind of like those who are heavily invested in FormZ and Lightwave.  I used to be that way with AutoDesk, it's hard to break away from something you know.

 

What I am hoping is the folks at Vectorworks are paying attention to this conversation.  If it inspires greater outreach to the architecture education community, better Marionette development, and enhanced collaboration with things like Rhino.Inside, we all win in the long run.  If it does not, I worry about the future of this software and my investment in it over the long term.

 

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Good post Jeff.  Have a nice day.

 

[Andy Broomell]

I may have mentioned this earlier in the thread, but Rhino has become QUITE popular amongst set designers for films (especially sci-fi & fantasy genres). As someone who has to import said files into Vectorworks, any additional interoperability between the programs would be incredibly welcome.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Hi Andy,

Rhino. has a forum like this one.  There are threads about importing into Vectorworks from Rhino.  They are all fairly positive.  The only negative comment I read was, "Vecotorworks, spawn from hell" or something similar, but that was AutoCAD.

It seems to be going from Vectorworks to Rhino that was/is the problem.  I'll bet that the old DXF>Text Format>coloured objects for separation would work.  That worked beautifully in the past.  Should also work coming in.

[Jeff Prince]

19 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

Hi Andy,

Rhino. has a forum like this one.  There are threads about importing into Vectorworks from Rhino.  They are all fairly positive.  The only negative comment I read was, "Vecotorworks, spawn from hell" or something similar, but that was AutoCAD.

It seems to be going from Vectorworks to Rhino that was/is the problem.  I'll bet that the old DXF>Text Format>coloured objects for separation would work.  That worked beautifully in the past.  Should also work coming in.

 

Plat, you must have come across this one then....

 

https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/rhinoinside-for-vectorworks/91545

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Yes, I did.  Have some time now.

 I am amazed at some of the features in Rhino, but assume that architects using Rhino are rather envious of Vectorworks.

When you and I discuss, it is Apples and Oranges.  I am not an Architect or a Landscape Designer, although I know how to create very large complex Terrain models with caves, etc.  But, I am always discussing with you or others about what you do.   Never what I do. 

I have 3D modelling specialist put down on my bio as it made sense in the Vectorworks Community.  But, that is not what I do.  I make movies with Vectorworks and CINEMA 4D.  

 Everything you see in this movie below was built in Vectorworks, except characters.  There is an advantage to Vectorworks if you can build the models.  The first ten seconds of this movie should explain.  Large scale modelling is something Vectorworks does very well. 

 

 

[Andy Broomell]

Some objects import from Rhino just fine. Anything rectilinear comes in as Generic Solids which is great.

 

But then other things come in as hundreds or thousands of NURBS surfaces, which often slow down responsiveness.

 

At the very least, having the option to automatically import those objects as Meshes instead of NURBS would be welcomed, since I find Meshes don't reduce responsiveness as badly. This option would need a conversion resolution setting, of course.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

29 minutes ago, Andy Broomell said:

 

But then other things come in as hundreds or thousands of NURBS surfaces

What happens whey you select the NURBS surfaces and "Add Solids"

[Jeff Prince]

12 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

but assume that architects using Rhino are rather envious of Vectorworks.

 

I doubt that.

Architects using Rhino are primarily interested in creating forms and parametric design, both of which the Rhino gores Vectorworks with.

 

I don't want to sound critical of Vectorworks, I obviously use it and have invested a lot into it.

However, reality bites sometimes.  I think Vectorworks does a good job of BIM and documentation for my purposes, but Revit blows down Vectorworks' house of cards upon close inspection of architectural needs.  Look no further than MEP + Structures integration.  Energy analysis anyone?  Libraries from manufactures?  And Revit does a bit better with wall assemblies and building systems... ETFE roofs for example are easy in Revit, insanely complex in Vectorworks.  There are architects who use Vectorworks, but they are in the minority and likely envious of Revit's capabilities (not graphics).

 

Anecdotally, most of the architects I know ask me how I can stand using Vectorworks, if they even know what it is.  Most use Revit... or Rhino+Revit if they are doing insanely cool stuff, not that software is what allows entry into the cool kids club.  One of my clients uses ArchiCAD, which is owned by Nemetschek, yet it can't cleanly collaborate with Vectorworks.  As you start to see more and more of these issues, you begin to wonder if the benefits outweigh the costs of using this platform, especially when it comes to hiring help.

 

Personally, Revit has nothing for me compared to Vectorworks because I deal with developing sites more than architecture and Vectorworks actually knows what a landscape architect does.  I appreciate them actually catering to my discipline.  Autodesk either doesn't know or doesn't care and hasn't for the entirety of my career.  Rhino knows what landscape architects are and would probably be a good partner.  McNeal used to have the coolest plant generator for doing renderings in Accurender (for AutoCAD) and Flamingo(for Rhino).  I was making some nice stuff with their tools over 20 years ago.

 

Since you like vintage animation, here's my first ever done in 1999 using Accurender and AutoCAD...

The frame rate and polygons give such a sense of nostalgia, or nausea....

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

13 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

Since you like vintage animation, here's my first ever done in 1999 using Accurender and AutoCAD.

Well thank you for sharing Jeff.  Very cool, and very good for the time period.

 

As I have been retired for nearly twenty years, I am really clued out about BIM, Revit, anything really,   My projects are done in the Canadian National Interest.

I began animating in the very early 90's using probably MiniCAD at the time, exporting to StrataVision.   I guess I began using C4D in the late 90's.  I was tasked with some Architectural historical reconstruction projects even though I am not an Architect.  This is a single scene of the animation, but I don't have it uploaded anymore.  Like yours done around 1999.  it would have been 15 frames per sec., so I took if off Youtube. 

Thanks for sharing your work.  Like to see more.

 

 

[Kaare Baekgaard]

VW nurbs are a lot better than given credit for by architects. The attached dinghy looks smooth, because the surfaces can be controlled perfectly.

I would love to see Rhino inside, though, and I am jealous of some of their tools. The Rhino import is , because all I get is millions of unhinged, ungrouped surfaces.

[Claes Lundstrom]

8 minutes ago, Kaare Baekgaard said:

VW nurbs are a lot better than given credit for by architects. The attached dinghy looks smooth, because the surfaces can be controlled perfectly.

I would love to see Rhino inside, though, and I am jealous of some of their tools. The Rhino import is , because all I get is millions of unhinged, ungrouped surfaces.

8 minutes ago, Kaare Baekgaard said:

NURBS are better in Rhino, though as an old boat design pro, I would never use it for boat design, despite that it's probably the most commonly used program for small boat design. In my opinion, it's really not a boat design software as such as it simply lacks the essential tools. You can add boat design extensions like Orca, but after having tried it, it felt way too much like an afterthought.

 

 

 

[Kaare Baekgaard]

3 hours ago, Claes Lundstrom said:

 

I am somewhat honored to be rebuked by the great marine designer and creator of TouchCad 🙂

Would it make sense to send a resumé and portfolio?

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

We never did get around to why nobody knows about how powerful Vectorworks NURBS are.  Vecrtorworks simply does not promote them.  It is not to say, they are not there.  There is simply no money in it for them, where with Rhino, that is where all the money is.  "Follow the money."

But NURBS are NURBS whether in Rhino or Vectorworks and Cross sections are Cross Sections.  

Below are three images of a Vectorworks NURBS Yacht.  This was made nearly eight years ago in Vectorworks.  It was to be a tutorial, but in the end was abandoned.

 

There are some things (not by design) that Vectorworks does very easily, that are difficult in other programs,  I render.animate in C4D. but build everything in Vectorworks.

 

 

 

 

[line-weight]

So, I've never used Rhino.

 

I've messed about a bit with NURBS in Vectorworks, but the almost complete lack of documentation as to how exactly they work limits the amount of time it seems sensible to invest in them, and they aren't necessary for 95% of the stuff that I want to draw in Vectorworks (and I use it mainly for architectural stuff).

 

It was interesting to follow this thread a short while ago, because it seems to be impossible to build the object truly seamlessly in VW, including using NURBS -

 

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/104317-modelling-challenge-möbius-strip-model-this-as-a-seamless-solid-with-no-visible-joins/

 

I'm curious whether it would be possible in Rhino.

 

 

[Jeff Prince]

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

I'm curious whether it would be possible in Rhino.

 

I think it might be possible in Rhino using the method I learned about in Blender... Rotating the orientation of path control points prior to extruding a line along it.

 

The twist and bend method I used in Vectorworks ends up with the same type of geometry in Rhino, not the orientation of the surfaces indicated.  Where the ends of the ribbon meet, they are not truly connected even though they exist in the same space via bending at 180 degrees exactly and snapping to the midpoint of the ribbon.  I'll have to fool with the control point method when I have more time as I do not know how to rotate their orientation in Rhino at the moment.

 

[Claes Lundstrom]

12 hours ago, Kaare Baekgaard said:

I am somewhat honored to be rebuked by the great marine designer and creator of TouchCad 🙂

Would it make sense to send a resumé and portfolio?

 

I wasn't talking about your design. Nothing wrong with that.

 

My point was that almost all developers of CAD programs, from SolidWorks and Catia and downwards, tend to use boats as example of what their products can do. In reality, there is a huge difference between generating something that looks like a boat, and generating a fully functional and production ready design that works well as a boat. Boat design is basically a wide array of elements that you gradually compile into a finished product, such as lines, weights, hydrostatics and stability, production friendliness, etc. You start with a basic concept, and then gradually tweak the parameters, often in very small steps, until you reach a good final result. The dedicated boat design programs do this as an integrated elements, which simply makes it a lot easier and quicker to get to the final result. You can repaint your house with a screwdriver, but why bother when it's much quicker using a brush. 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

13 hours ago, line-weight said:

I'm curious whether it would be possible in Rhino.

I have not looked at Rhino in depth, but it also may not do it or do it the same as I did in Vectorworks or Jeff did in Blender, which appear to be the same.  I think it may come down to two NURBS curve can't exist in the same space.  Having said that, If Vectorworks implemented a "Closed inverted" command in the Loft dialogue box, then it might work quite easily.

The Mobius curve or use of the Mobius curve in design is not likely a high priority for any CAD company.  Although animation software might work.  I may try it in C4D later.

 

[xxubiqts]

Piping in here to say that I would really, really like to see Rhino.Inside Vectorworks. The fact that ArchiCAD and Revit are both supporting this should be proof enough that these tools (Grasshopper especially) are valuable and seeing widespread usage. In fact, I've been noticing North American job postings for cutting-edge offices are listing experience with Rhino.Inside as a requirement.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

This topic has come up on other threads.  Curious, why do you need Rhino 3D?  Architectural 3D is not that complex compared to engineering designs.  That is not to say that mastering Vectorworks is not complex, but architecture is Vector-Linear design.  

 

Perhaps you are not using it for Architecture which would make sense, but then why not just buy Rhino 3D.

[line-weight]

11 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

 Architectural 3D is not that complex compared to engineering designs.

That depends entirely on the kind of architecture you want to represent (and how you want to represent it).

[bcd]

1 hour ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

but architecture is Vector-Linear design.

🫣

 

To the ruler the line

To the clay the world

 

Perhaps generative design in VW will obviate the need to some degree.

(& a transformative re-imagining of Nurbs and their UI in VW 🙂 )

1000 Biscayne Blvd, Miami

by Zaha Hadid Architects

Miami Design District, parking lot facade by

IwamotoScott and Leong Leong

Edited November 27, 2023 by bcd
credits

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

@bcd  Is this one of your designs?

 

[bcd]

no - credits added above