VW 2018: Push-pull tool problems continue

[line-weight 409]

This is a continuation of an issue that I was already having in 2017. Mentioned in a couple of threads by me and others previously without much response.

 

Essentially: the push pull tool (a) struggles to select faces, (b) fails completely to select faces, or (c) causes a freeze with spinning beachball when there are moderately complex objects in the drawing.

 

As far as I can work out, it happens as soon as one of those objects is behind whatever face you are trying to select.

 

This has been a big problem in a drawing where I had a few imported symbols (from BIMobject and elsewhere). It became impossible to use the push-pull tool to edit simple objects in the drawings, unless I hid all of those complex objects. To make sure this isn't a problem specific to that drawing file, I've created a new and fairly simple one in VW2018. If anyone would like to see if they can replicate this, here is what I did:

- new blank file.

- go to BIMobject download. I downloaded fairly much at random a server unit casing, in SKP format. If you type "sr25ub" into the BIMobject search bar you should find it.

- I placed two of these units next to each other

- then I drew a simple extruded rectangle, sitting next to them. See screenshots below.

- one of the screenshots has a viewpoint with the extruded block to the left. using this viewpoint, the push-pull tool will select any face on the white block easily and correctly, and function as expected.

- however - the other screenshot has a viewpoint with the server units hiding behind the white block. using this viewpoint, the push pull tool struggles to select the face of the white block at all, and I get freezes and spinning beachballs.

 

This doesn't seem like an overly complex drawing. My machine specs are posted down below. It's a refurbed/upgraded mac pro.

 

I've attached the drawing file too.

 

 

pptest.vwx

[Kevin McAllister 957]

I get a few spinning beach balls when I try in your original file. If I wait they resolve and the face highlights.

 

Those objects are pretty messy when you go in an edit them. I think there are two main issues slowing things down - nesting and meshes. The objects are objects nested in objects nested in objects. From the top down- BIM Object, Symbol, Individual Symbols, Meshes (essentially groups of 3d polygons). I ungrouped everything within the main symbol (so I had a collection of meshes), ran the new Simplify Mesh command (Modify>Simplify Mesh), ungrouped the meshes and then converted them to a single mesh. It helps some, but there's still a lot of faces.

 

I have a feeling this is the main reason Simplify Mesh was added to VW2018. It halved the number of faces of this particular model. Unfortunately VW still doesn't deal well with meshes in general and I suspect your issue will persist until this is addressed.

 

Kevin

[line-weight 409]

Yes. This is a problem I have with BIMobject; it's presented as all quick and easy but unfortunately nearly everything I download from there gives me the bloated messy nested/mesh objects that you describe.

 

Question is which can/should be fixed - the BIMobect import process or the push-pull tool? I'd have thought that maybe at least an interim solution might involve some way of telling the push-pull tool to ignore any object with more than a certain number of faces, unless editing within it, or something.

 

Otherwise my only solution is what I have done at present: to have a "messy symbols" class which I can switch off each time I need to use the push-pull tool. Not very satisfactory.

[zoomer 617]

It is important to have enough file complexity,

otherwise now one will be able to reproduce that behavior.

Had not tested this in VW 2018 so far but am not happy to read it hear.

 

For me, when these Problems with some Objects,

as soon as you pulled one Object and want to do again later PPT will not select any Face

of that object again.

Other Objects not edited so far during that session may or may NOT work.

And if not, sometimes it may help to try another view orientation or zoom level,

sometimes not.

 

 

The solution is always simple :

(It isn't any solution btw)

Select the Object you need to edit and do a

"CMD+F" set to front.

[Kevin McAllister 957]

51 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Question is which can/should be fixed - the BIMobect import process or the push-pull tool? I'd have thought that maybe at least an interim solution might involve some way of telling the push-pull tool to ignore any object with more than a certain number of faces, unless editing within it, or something.

 

The BIM objects or at least the BIM Object import process is what should be fixed in my opinion. VW should be smart enough to convert the volumes into generic solids or Subdivision objects. VW is a CAD program, not a polygon modeller..... I agree that a good interim solution would be to set the Push/Pull tool to ignore meshes.

 

Kevin

 

[Gadzooks 104]

@line-weight

 

I've just tried this file on an iMac and it doesn't show the dreaded beach balls. (Probably not what you wanted to hear)

 

It seems the file is, as Kevin has confirmed (by having to take the whole thing to bits and redrawing!!), far too cumbersome due to the way you've had to import. Its not helped by wanting two of the same objects as well if you're going to split them - there might be mileage in the future to consider 1st, trying to reduce the faces as Kevin has done and then 2nd, opting for the use of symbols to help VW use (duplicate) the geometry at its most economic. Obviously symbols will only pay dividends the more there are.

 

1 hour ago, line-weight said:

This is a problem I have with BIMobject; it's presented as all quick and easy but unfortunately nearly everything I download from there gives me the bloated messy nested/mesh objects that you describe.

 

I have the same problem with these files. If I'm designing a complex building I don't want (say) a single imported wc pan to increase the file size so much as they seem to. I've just had this on a project and when I examined the 'helpful' BIM Object it was easier to redraw parts and smooth other parts. It made the  geometry much more useable.  TBH I'm not sure of the 'value' getting into bed with BIM Object has brought to VW.

 

Perhaps @JimWor other could let us know how the future looks with BIM Object because, despite the fanfare, from my perspective the honeymoon is over and its not looking as rosy as the bride and groom had hoped? I'm obviously speaking as a disgruntled 'relative' that can't see it lasting  I think the Brides father is fixing the brakes on the grooms car.

 

Maybe its time to seek therapy on that one!!

 

1 hour ago, Kevin McAllister said:

The BIM objects or at least the BIM Object import process is what should be fixed in my opinion. VW should be smart enough to convert the volumes into generic solids or Subdivision objects. VW is a CAD program, not a polygon modeller.

 

Definitely - 100% . This is useful therapy. I recommend a course - but is not going to come cheap is it Kevin!

 

Some things I could offer that might help generally...

• Sometimes I've found it helpful (and often quicker than switching classes on and off etc) by quickly making the object you want to manipulate into a Group. Do what you want to it inside its 'own space' and then exit and ungroup.
• Also Ive found (and others may agree - or not!) that if you highlight the object first then use the PPT, VW seems to manage to disregard the geometry close by. On that one, all I can suggest is you might try it.

 

 

[line-weight 409]

9 hours ago, zoomer said:

The solution is always simple :

(It isn't any solution btw)

Select the Object you need to edit and do a

"CMD+F" set to front.

 

This sort-of works for me. It does seem to improve things. Instead of getting beachball/freeze I get momentary beachball, or maybe no beachball but still laggy response.

[line-weight 409]

7 hours ago, Gadzooks said:

 

 

Some things I could offer that might help generally...

• Sometimes I've found it helpful (and often quicker than switching classes on and off etc) by quickly making the object you want to manipulate into a Group. Do what you want to it inside its 'own space' and then exit and ungroup.
• Also Ive found (and others may agree - or not!) that if you highlight the object first then use the PPT, VW seems to manage to disregard the geometry close by. On that one, all I can suggest is you might try it.

 

 

 

Yes - I sometimes use the "temporary group" approach as a workaround for this, and other problems.

 

I've tried the highlighting first - but as far as I can see it doesn't seem to make any difference for me.

[line-weight 409]

Can anyone from Vectorworks comment on whether this is recognised as a problem/bug or not? Seems I am not the only one who has issues with it.

 

@JimW?

[PVA - Jim 2,293]

7 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Can anyone from Vectorworks comment on whether this is recognised as a problem/bug or not? Seems I am not the only one who has issues with it.

 

@JimW?

I can check after the Summit is over. Apologies, no access to the tracking system from here.

[line-weight 409]

6 hours ago, JimW said:

after the Summit is over.

 

ah, fair enough!

[PVA - Jim 2,293]

On 9/19/2017 at 8:52 AM, line-weight said:

Can anyone from Vectorworks comment on whether this is recognised as a problem/bug or not? Seems I am not the only one who has issues with it.

 

@JimW?

Instantaneous replication of the issue in the file, submitting this as a bug now. There are a few already submitted semi-related to this but not with such clear cut examples, thank you!

VB-145786

[line-weight 409]

1 hour ago, JimW said:

Instantaneous replication of the issue in the file, submitting this as a bug now. There are a few already submitted semi-related to this but not with such clear cut examples, thank you!

VB-145786

 

Great. Thank you.

[Patrick Fritsch 51]

Same problem here on a 2017 converted file. FYI only so you don't feel too lonely.

 

[line-weight 409]

This issue is still causing me constant headaches. @JimW can you report any progress?

 

It's not just the push-pull tool. It's common to everything that needs to select a face. Set working Plane for example (there's another thread about that).

 

And the extract face tool. Here's me in the video below trying to select faces to extract from some really quite simple geometry. It's completely inconsistent and really frustrating. This is very basic functionality. Basic functionality needs to work properly. I wish I hadn't paid to upgrade to VW2018 because this stuff seems to be even worse than 2017. This is 2018 SP3.

 

 

 

extract.mov

Edited March 29, 2018 by line-weight

[PVA - Jim 2,293]

No progress listed so far however it was accepted it looks like, which normally means that engineering was able to replicate the issue. No fix version listed yet though.

[Wesley Burrows 74]

I keep running into this also.  Spinning Beach Ball of Death for days.

[line-weight 409]

18 hours ago, Wesley Burrows said:

I keep running into this also.  Spinning Beach Ball of Death for days.

 

Do you find it more or less problematic according to whether the file originated in VW2018?

[Wesley Burrows 74]

4 hours ago, line-weight said:

Do you find it more or less problematic according to whether the file originated in VW2018?

 

Most recently I was doing this in a native 2018 file,  and push-pull was borderline unusable.    Only a small number of my projects end life in a different VW version than they began,  so I haven't noticed.  

[zoomer 617]

On 29.3.2018 at 12:58 PM, line-weight said:

It's not just the push-pull tool. It's common to everything that needs to select a face.

 

extract.mov

 

 

It think it would be so much easier and reliable if there would only be, at least as an option,

a way to restrict sucht Sub Face Selections to selected geometry only.

Would help so much in crowded files to select occluded Faces when Elements touching

or prevent larger visibility actions, if possible at all.

[PVA - Jim 2,293]

5 hours ago, line-weight said:

Do you find it more or less problematic according to whether the file originated in VW2018?

 

29 minutes ago, Wesley Burrows said:

Most recently I was doing this in a native 2018 file,  and push-pull was borderline unusable.    Only a small number of my projects end life in a different VW version than they began,  so I haven't noticed.  

From what I have seen reported, the issue is directly related to the introduction of a BIMobject, and the versioning of the file doesn;t seem to affect it much if at all.

[line-weight 409]

I don't think it's just BIMobject. I think it's any object in the background that has complicated geometry (ie lots of faces etc).

 

That said, I'm not sure this is the full story. If you look at the video I posted above, there's nothing behind the troublesome geometry (unless somehow stuff on hidden layers comes into play). All the geometry I'm working on there is uncomplicated.

 

There's something that seems to make selecting a face, across several tools, unreliable. It doesn't seem like I'm alone in experiencing this.

 

I really think this is something that needs fairly urgent attention.

On 3/30/2018 at 3:33 PM, zoomer said:

 

 

It think it would be so much easier and reliable if there would only be, at least as an option,

a way to restrict sucht Sub Face Selections to selected geometry only.

Would help so much in crowded files to select occluded Faces when Elements touching

or prevent larger visibility actions, if possible at all.

Agreed

[line-weight 409]

On 3/30/2018 at 3:16 PM, Wesley Burrows said:

 

Most recently I was doing this in a native 2018 file,  and push-pull was borderline unusable.    Only a small number of my projects end life in a different VW version than they began,  so I haven't noticed.  

 

Is it something you can replicate and post a screen recording of here?

[line-weight 409]

I don't know if its SP4 that has made this worse, or if it's to do with the file I am working on which originated in an earlier version of VW.

 

But the push-pull tool - 100% absolutely unusable in this file. As you can see in the screen recording it won't even select a face. Any face. Very very occasionally it'll select a face, but then it won't be able to push or pull it.

 

What a massive waste of time. I've already wasted time setting up the drawing so that I can draw the roof in 3d so that it can show on elevations. That's down the drain because it's now impossible for me to draw what I want in any sensible way. I'm going to have to draw it on manually in annotations or something, which will take even more time. This is some work I said I'd be able to do in X amount of time, which I said assuming that the software I pay however many hundreds of pounds per year for can perform at least the rudimentary actions it's supposed to. A foolish assumption to make, it seems.

 

(Or am I being stupid and missing something?)

 

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by line-weight

[zoomer 617]

On 9/16/2017 at 6:30 PM, zoomer said:

The solution is always simple :

 (It isn't any solution btw)

Select the Object you need to edit and do a

 "CMD+F" set to front.

 

[line-weight 409]

The CMD-F doesn't always work for me. In the example above ^ it didn't work at all, sadly.

 

The other thing that sometimes works is to put the object into a group of its own, then edit it within that group with nothing else visible.

 

Again, even that didn't work on this occasion.

 

I just had to give up and spend a couple of hours drawing all the elevations manually.