INTERIOR WALL - FIT TO CEILING

[line-weight]

2 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

You can if you clip these walls with the roof which is what I think @Todd W is talking about + what @Tobias Kern demonstrates in his excellent model

Ah I see. So it is possible if you associate the wall with a roof but not if you want to fit the wall to the underside of some custom geometry that can't be made with the roof or roof face tools, is that right?

[Tobias Kern]

Hi,

 

@Matt Panzer

I made a report: VB-199582.

 

Hope we see a fix in a foreseen future!

 

Greetings

Tobi

Edited September 27, 2023 by Tobias Kern

[Tom W.]

11 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Ah I see. So it is possible if you associate the wall with a roof but not if you want to fit the wall to the underside of some custom geometry that can't be made with the roof or roof face tools, is that right?

 

Correct. You can if you want use Roof Faces as if they were 3D Solids to clip the tops of Walls to a desired shape - like angled coping stones or something - then hide them on an invisible layer. You can also use a '3D Wall Component' symbol to do the same + this way you can use any shape you want, it's just a bit more fiddly because the geometry is invisible inside a symbol + you have to insert that symbol in the wall.

[line-weight]

3 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

Correct. You can if you want use Roof Faces as if they were 3D Solids to clip the tops of Walls to a desired shape - like angled coping stones or something - then hide them on an invisible layer. You can also use a '3D Wall Component' symbol to do the same + this way you can use any shape you want, it's just a bit more fiddly because the geometry is invisible inside a symbol + you have to insert that symbol in the wall.

 

You've prompted me to fiddle with associated walls & roof faces, and clipping of each, which is not something I generally use (because I never feel it's going to be customisable enough, to join multi-component walls/roofs in exactly the way I want). And have found that I can make a single wall/roof eaves connection nearly like what I want. But then, am reminded of the main reason I don't use this which is that I can't define a different set of relationships for another wall that meets that same roof face, for example a verge detail vs. an eaves detail.

 

However ... today I have learnt that this method can create a sloped wall-top where the fit-to-objects method can't.

[Tom W.]

5 hours ago, line-weight said:

I can't define a different set of relationships for another wall that meets that same roof face, for example a verge detail vs. an eaves detail.

 

Exactly. Or you have a pitched Roof that has different Walls each side + therefore different eaves details. This is one of the reasons i always say that I can generally get everything in my model looking the way I want until I get to the roof, where there's an inevitable compromise involved in choosing the least worst option. At least with Slabs you can add/subtract 3D Solids so if you're willing to do the work you can essentially achieve any fo you want. 

[line-weight]

13 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

You can also use a '3D Wall Component' symbol to do the same + this way you can use any shape you want, it's just a bit more fiddly because the geometry is invisible inside a symbol + you have to insert that symbol in the wall.

 

By this you mean a "3d Wall hole component" and not the "create wall projection" or "create wall recess" commands, right?

 

(Am wary of those, as recently mentioned here)

[Tom W.]

1 minute ago, line-weight said:

 

By this you mean a "3d Wall hole component" and not the "create wall projection" or "create wall recess" commands, right?

 

(Am wary of those, as recently mentioned here)

 

Yes sorry I missed out the 'hole'. And yes in my experience 'Create Wall project' + 'Create Wall Recess' commands have fairly limited use but they do have a place: it is useful that you can wrap components with them.

 

Basically you can use a wall hole component symbol to subtract 3D geometry from a Wall in the same way you can use 'Subtract 3D Solid' on a Slab, just not as straightforwardly...

 

I think Walls + Slabs are pretty good: you have a range of options/tricks at your disposal + can generally achieve what you want one way or another. But Roofs have some catching up to do...

[Matt Panzer]

I believe the wall roof clipping issue is known but I submitted another VB (VB-199616) with @Tobias Kern's VWX file to make sure that case is covered.

I also submitted another bug (VB-199617) from that problem wall in @Todd W's file.

 

 

 

[Matt Panzer]

On 9/27/2023 at 2:45 PM, Tobias Kern said:

Hi,

 

@Matt Panzer

I made a report: VB-199582.

 

Hope we see a fix in a foreseen future!

 

Greetings

Tobi

 

I totally missed a bunch of messages in this thread today.

Long day...

 

Thank you for reporting this!  I linked my bug with yours. 🙂 

[mike m oz]

Ceilings need to be a separate object type that can be horizontal, raked and vertical (for bulkheads).  Their components also need to seamlessly join.

 

We also need the ability to have walls automatically clip ceiling components so the structural cores join.

[Tom W.]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:12 AM, Matt Panzer said:

I believe the wall roof clipping issue is known but I submitted another VB (VB-199616) with @Tobias Kern's VWX file to make sure that case is covered.

I also submitted another bug (VB-199617) from that problem wall in @Todd W's file.

 

 

 

 

Hi @Matt Panzer do you know what the latest is on this? The problem is still present in Update 2. With Wall Clipping not working I can't use VW2024 as I need it for every project. So quite a big deal but hopefully it's high up the list of priorities...? I'm not sure why anything needed to change between VW2023 + VW2024: it's not as if there was any other work done to Roofs was there? Or even Walls for that matter. I appreciate it you looking into it - thank you!

[Tobias Kern]

Hello Tom,

 

hmmmm?

 

The error I reported has been fixed.

 

The beta version I have access to is not affected by this behavior.
I tested my own demo file from this thread.

 

We are not getting an official update 2 in Germany.
I expect it for end of November or beginning of December.

 

In previous beta updates for update 2 I tested the file, and it worked for me.

If possible, send a demo file from you.

 

I will test it out

 

Greetings

Tobi

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, Tobias Kern said:

Hello Tom,

 

hmmmm?

 

The error I reported has been fixed.

 

The beta version I have access to is not affected by this behavior.
I tested my own demo file from this thread.

 

We are not getting an official update 2 in Germany.
I expect it for end of November or beginning of December.

 

In previous beta updates for update 2 I tested the file, and it worked for me.

If possible, send a demo file from you.

 

I will test it out

 

Greetings

Tobi

 

Hi Tobi thank you. That's interesting. I just did a quick test this morning before posting + as far as I saw the problem was still present. Basically when you associate a Wall with a Roof the Roof will automatically clip the Wall regardless of what your settings are. So if all you want is to clip the Walls then that's fine, you won't notice any difference, but where you want the Wall to clip the Roof instead you have a problem because it in effect does both things at once: the roof clips the wall + the wall clips the roof at the same time. Previously it would respect the Roof component settings + do one or the other.

 

Yes if you had time to send me a demo file showing how it's working for you that would be great thank you!

[Tobias Kern]

Hi Tom,

 

can you please send me a demo-file from you?

 

Greetings

Tobi

[Tom W.]

12 minutes ago, Tobias Kern said:

Hi Tom,

 

can you please send me a demo-file from you?

 

Greetings

Tobi

 

Doh sorry I misread your email. But in preparing a file for you I have realised what's going on. You are right, things have changed + the roof clipping is working now but I can see what happened in my quick test file this morning that led me to think that things were still broken. If you create a Roof by selecting 4 Walls + running the 'Create Roof...' command, the Roof which is created will automatically clip those Walls regardless of whether you want them to or not. So in my test my Roof Style is set up so that the rafter component is clipped by the Walls + nothing else but this is ignored in the automatically created Roof: in order to get it working the way it should you have to disassociate the Walls then re-associate them + then the Roof will be clipped by the Walls. So you are right: this is a fix compared to the previous situation because then there was no way to override the automatically created conditions + get things looking the way they were meant to. And I can see that for many people this will be regarded as an improvement because in simple representations, having the gable ends + eaves automatically extend to the underside of the roof is advantageous, but even so it is still a bit strange to have this happen automatically + without warning + in violation of the style settings + have to manually disassociate then re-associate the Walls in order to get things the way they are meant to be...

 

Anyway at least I can start using VW2024 properly now, knowing there's a way to make roof clipping work. Thanks for the heads up Tobi!

 

@Matt Panzer be great to get your take on all this. I think in practise I generally always create my Roofs from shapes rather than Walls directly so perhaps my workflow will be completely unaffected by this change

 

[cberg]

This is such a confusing topic.  I have never been able to successfully clip walls to a roof face in VW2023 or 2024.  😵‍💫

 

I typically work with roof faces.  Building them from shapes.  Is there a good video describing how it should work.  VW help is not super helpful.

 

[Tom W.]

16 hours ago, cberg said:

I have never been able to successfully clip walls to a roof face in VW2023

 

Why what is going wrong?

[cberg]

I understand how to associate walls with Roof and Roof faces. 

 

I also understand that there is a component setting within the roof face that allows you to adjust the roof edge component to a portion of the wall component.  Inside face, outside face, etc...  Clip walls, clipped by walls... 

 

But I don't understand how to trim the wall to the associated roof /  roof faces.  Typically I would fit walls to objects, and offset wall components.  It sounds like I am missing a setting somewhere if the walls can join up with a specific roof component.

 

VW help implies that you can do it. 
 

Quote

 

Roof and wall associations

Associating roof and roof faces with walls allows clipping of the walls and roofs to occur where they intersect, for proper section views. When roof objects are created based on a set of selected walls, they are associated with those walls. Roof faces are created without being associated with walls.

 

 

 

roof test.vwx

Edited November 25, 2023 by cberg

[Tom W.]

17 hours ago, cberg said:

But I don't understand how to trim the wall to the associated roof /  roof faces.

 

You need to adjust the heights of the Walls to where you want them relative to the roof. So set the Wall to the height of the wall plate then offset the other components appropriately. It's up to you to get the Roof + the Walls where you want them then the clipping will simply subtract one from the other depending on what you tell it to do, in the manner of Subtract Solids.

 

I'm not 100% sure what your desired end-result is but this is the kind of thing I'd commonly do:

 

If you create it as a Roof rather than two Roof Faces the edge offsets will apply to the verges as well (if you want the roof covering to extend further to cover a barge board for example):

 

I do find all this incredibly fiddly + time-consuming + is an area that definitely needs improvement. It would be great if you could interactively reshape components in section in order to set their positions rather than having to measure them in a section VP then go to the Wall/Roof object on the design layer, open the settings then apply the offsets numerically one by one...

 

File attached:

roof test_TW.vwx

[cberg]

 

10 hours ago, Tom W. said:

It would be great if you could interactively reshape components in section in order to set their positions rather than having to measure them in a section VP then go to the Wall/Roof object on the design layer, open the settings then apply the offsets numerically one by one...

 

That was my question. Thanks so much for your help! 

 

It sounds like the process of clipping walls to a roof is not automated, even if the walls are associated with a roof.  In other words, roof components can be clipped by the wall.  But wall components aren't able to be clipped by a roof/roof face.  The code to do this exists in VW, but it hasn't been implemented consistently through the various architect tools.

"Best in BIM" software must allow dynamic, interactive connections between roof components and wall components.  Fiddling as much as we do in VW wastes so much time. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

38 minutes ago, cberg said:

But wall components aren't able to be clipped by a roof/roof face.

yes they are. just not individually. Or rather which wall components are clipped will depend on how far the Roof component extends into the thickness of the wall + where it is bound to. 

[cberg]

Sorry to sound obtuse, but I only see two commands. 

 

1.  AEC Menu - Fit Walls to Objects.

2.  Roof Face - Wall Clipping Tools.

 

-If I fit "Walls to Objects", I can only fit the left, right, or center of the wall to the bottom edge of the Roof Face.  One cannot fit the wall to a specific component within the roof. 

-From there one needs to cut a section and manually offset each wall component to line up (as needed) to the associated roof component. 

-The roof datum doesn't seem to impact much of anything, beyond moving the roof face up or down.  (It doesn't impact where the wall fits to the roof)

-If the roof moves vertically, or changes pitches, one must repeat this process over again.  (The two elements aren't linked)

 

Is that correct, or am I missing some critical functionality of roof - wall association? 

 

Best

C

 

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

4 minutes ago, cberg said:

Sorry to sound obtuse, but I only see two commands. 

 

1.  AEC Menu - Fit Walls to Objects.

2.  Roof Face - Wall Clipping Tools.

 

-If I fit "Walls to Objects", I can only fit the left, right, or center of the wall to the bottom edge of the Roof Face.  One cannot fit the wall to a specific component within the roof. 

-From there one needs to cut a section and manually offset each wall component to line up (as needed) to the associated roof component. 

-The roof datum doesn't seem to impact much of anything, beyond moving the roof face up or down.  (It doesn't impact where the wall fits to the roof)

-If the roof moves vertically, or changes pitches, one must repeat this process over again.  (The two elements aren't linked)

 

Is that correct, or am I missing some critical functionality of roof - wall association? 

 

Best

C

 

 

 

 

 

Yes correct good summary!

 

To add to this though is the new functionality in VW2024 whereby if you create a Roof from Walls the Walls now automatically extend up to the underside of the Roof + are clipped by it. However as discussed elsewhere I'm not sure how much of an advantage this is as it seems that in order to then apply your own more nuanced per-component clipping settings you have to first disassociate the automatically-associated Walls then re-associate them again to get your settings to work properly.

[Matt Panzer]

On 11/22/2023 at 5:44 AM, Tom W. said:

 

Doh sorry I misread your email. But in preparing a file for you I have realised what's going on. You are right, things have changed + the roof clipping is working now but I can see what happened in my quick test file this morning that led me to think that things were still broken. If you create a Roof by selecting 4 Walls + running the 'Create Roof...' command, the Roof which is created will automatically clip those Walls regardless of whether you want them to or not. So in my test my Roof Style is set up so that the rafter component is clipped by the Walls + nothing else but this is ignored in the automatically created Roof: in order to get it working the way it should you have to disassociate the Walls then re-associate them + then the Roof will be clipped by the Walls. So you are right: this is a fix compared to the previous situation because then there was no way to override the automatically created conditions + get things looking the way they were meant to. And I can see that for many people this will be regarded as an improvement because in simple representations, having the gable ends + eaves automatically extend to the underside of the roof is advantageous, but even so it is still a bit strange to have this happen automatically + without warning + in violation of the style settings + have to manually disassociate then re-associate the Walls in order to get things the way they are meant to be...

 

Anyway at least I can start using VW2024 properly now, knowing there's a way to make roof clipping work. Thanks for the heads up Tobi!

 

@Matt Panzer be great to get your take on all this. I think in practise I generally always create my Roofs from shapes rather than Walls directly so perhaps my workflow will be completely unaffected by this change

 

 

Hey Tom,

I'm not seeing a difference between VW 2023 and 2024.  Can you attach a quick video of the difference in behavior?

Also, If you're not using default content, can you attach a simple file with the wall and roof styles you're using?

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

Hey Tom,

I'm not seeing a difference between VW 2023 and 2024.  Can you attach a quick video of the difference in behavior?

Also, If you're not using default content, can you attach a simple file with the wall and roof styles you're using?

 

Hi Matt thanks for this. Well despite my best efforts I've been unable to replicate the behaviour I described earlier so either I imagined it or it requires a particular set of roof clipping settings that I've yet to stumble across! I also realise that some of the things I said regarding automatic wall association/clipping when you create a Roof from selected Walls were incorrect: the behaviour is the same between VW2023 + VW2024, I just didn't realise because I always create Roofs from shapes then manually associate the Walls... Oops!

 

I think I just need to start using VW2024 as I would normally + then see if I have any further problems... Thanks