3D resize of a 2 part extrusion

[apswoodwork]

I'm learning 3D as a furniture maker, and have drawn an extruded frame (kitchen cabinet front frame) and added an internal moulding with the extrude along path tool.

I use the reshape tool to alter 2D frame widths without it rescaling the frame widths, but I can't work out how to do that in 3D.

The basis is I need to change the overall widths on doors and frames without the sections (ie the 25mm side rail width) being scaled up or down with the overall size.

Also, can I combine the frame and internal moulding to be as one?

Thanks in advance, Andy

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

I was thinking an architect would chime it by now as they would understand your problem better.  It appears to be an EAP solution.

 

Question.  How did you build these?   Was it Extrude Along Path?

[apswoodwork]

Hi.
Yes it was a profile extruded along a path. As a novice I’ll read about EAP in more detail. 

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Lot's to learn in this program.  One thing that is not clear is that you can have more than one profile on EAP.  That is why the next button is there to select the path.  You could make a profile out of several separated profiles (don't group).   Select all the curves and use the next button to select the path.  

After that, you can use the edit function to change each profile.  That way you can more or less set it up how you will change your windows profiles.  Again, not an architect, so my terminology is off.

 

I can make a little video tomorrow if you don't work it out on your own.  

[apswoodwork]

Thanks for the reply. Any further help is greatly appreciated as I’m a woodworker by trade so this takes some

learning! I managed it in Sketchup, but VW is so much easier to produce 2D plans. 

Edited March 28 by apswoodwork

[Tom W.]

8 hours ago, apswoodwork said:

I use the reshape tool to alter 2D frame widths without it rescaling the frame widths, but I can't work out how to do that in 3D.

The basis is I need to change the overall widths on doors and frames without the sections (ie the 25mm side rail width) being scaled up or down with the overall size.

 

If the 3D object has 'history' one option is to edit the 2D shape it was created from (with the Reshape Tool as you describe). So for example if you drew the frame as a 2D shape initially then extruded it outwards, you could double-click on the Extrude to get back to the original 2D shape to edit it.

 

Or if it is a Generic Solid I would just use the Split Tool in the 2nd mode to cut it in half, move one half apart to make it wider, then use Push/Pull to join the top + bots rails back together then use Add Solids to make them a single object again.

 

Or you can Push/Pull the outer edge of the frame whatever distance you need then Push/Pull the inner edge the same distance going in the same direction.

 

8 hours ago, apswoodwork said:

Also, can I combine the frame and internal moulding to be as one?

 

Yes use the Add Solids command (right-click object context menu or Model menu).

[apswoodwork]

Thanks so much. I’ll give all these a try over the next few days. Babysitting our granddaughter over the Easter weekend so - family first 🤗

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

15 hours ago, apswoodwork said:

Babysitting our granddaughter over the Easter weekend so

We are visiting our son this weekend on east coast, so only have basic tools.  Made this video that explains what I said in an earlier post.  

 

I think this is what you are interested in.

 

 

[Tom W.]

I think there are two different things going on here. The OP was talking about resizing the outer frame which isn't an EAP because the top rail + stile are different profiles:

 

But the inner moulding is no doubt an EAP in which case you have options for editing the profile as @VIRTUALENVIRONS demonstrates or the path if you want to resize the object:

 

[line-weight]

The OP needs to explain more clearly what their question is.

[Tom W.]

17 minutes ago, line-weight said:

The OP needs to explain more clearly what their question is.

 

I understood they were saying that in 2D you can take a polygon like this...

 

 

... and use the Reshape tool to grab half the handles + widen the shape without affecting the width of the side members:

 

 

The question was, how do you do a similar thing once the shape has been extruded into a 3D object:

 

 

At least that's what my original answer above was based on.

 

[line-weight]

Yeah a familiar problem and I'd agree with your suggestions!

 

For a beginner ... it's well worth being aware that as soon as you do a push-pull operation on an extrude, you generally lose the option to go back and edit the 2d source shape - I try and keep this in mind and do edits to the 2d source shape rather than push-pulling, if possible; it's a less destructive mode of editing.

 

Occasionally in this scenario, if it's something I know I'll want to pull around a lot, I'll make a subdivision because that allows you to select groups of nodes in a similar way to the 2d reshape too.

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

I guess we will find out.  

One of the good things about ambiguous questions is the amount of good information that comes out of it.  It's not a competition.

 

Whatever the problem is, he has a lot more info now than before.

 

But, still not clear on the original concern.

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, line-weight said:

For a beginner ... it's well worth being aware that as soon as you do a push-pull operation on an extrude, you generally lose the option to go back and edit the 2d source shape - I try and keep this in mind and do edits to the 2d source shape rather than push-pulling, if possible; it's a less destructive mode of editing.

 

I think that's only if you use the 2nd mode of the tool. If you use the first mode the Extrude becomes a Solid Addition or Solid Subtraction.

 

1 hour ago, line-weight said:

Occasionally in this scenario, if it's something I know I'll want to pull around a lot, I'll make a subdivision because that allows you to select groups of nodes in a similar way to the 2d reshape too.

 

That's an excellent suggestion + would be perfect for what @apswoodwork is wanting to do (assuming I understood the question correctly 🙂). I must try to remember to do it myself now + again!

[Kevin K]

A few additional general thoughts regarding extrude along path, especially for beginners....I used to struggle with EAP's not working! 🙂

 

1) Be mindful of placing the item to be extruded exactly where you want it to be, if you want accuracy relating to the path object.

IF they are NOT connected correctly and the profile object is just out in space it will perform the EAP with the profile object centered on the path object, etc.

 

2) Also be mindful of the 'direction' (noted by the red arrow) If you have it going the wrong way.  You will get an error message saying the operation could not be completed. Also note the 'fix profile and lock profile plane items and configure correctly.

 

 

 

Extruded crown moulding utilizing clip cube for clarity

 

[apswoodwork]

WOW

Thanks everyone for going deep into EAP and its issues.

To try to clarify in a non VW fluent tongue, I make fitted furniture 

Work Site.

If I make a front frame for a cabinet, I then either add a moulding to that frame, or insert a separate moulding that frame, as shown in my initial post.

I now have the frame, within which a make a door to fit (possibly also to have a moulding).

These vary in width, but the frame rails remain the same section, say 25mm side rails.

If I simply stretch a drawing, the scale alters, thus showing incorrect representation or the design sections.

In 2d I can rattle these out fairly well for a self taught VW user who’s more used to handling wood over a Mac!

See plans attached for reference.

 

I decided to attempt 3d and found:

   -the reshape tool didn’t work as easily as in 2d,

   -the frame could be manipulated but it left the EAP path behind which took another level if understanding!,

   -and if I tried to add the frame (extruded rectangle with the centre cut out) to the EAP created moulding, they wouldn’t combine as I thought to look like a single shaped frame. Thus I could no longer alter the width without scaling, loosing it’s proportions.

 

Am I approaching this the wrong way, making a rookie mistake, or immediately coming up against a known problem.

When I see the amazing images drawn with VW, I’m sure there must be a way.

Please bear in mind I am trying this as a self learning challenge, and don’t think I could ever draw a project, which usually requires several revisions, in a financial viable way.

 

Thanks again so very much, you are all amazing to spend your time helping others.

🙏

Suzanne McNess Rev-6.1.pdf

Edited March 29 by apswoodwork

[Jeff Prince]

@apswoodwork you might want to check out this...

 

https://fitplot.it/vwplugins/mouldings.html#

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

33 minutes ago, apswoodwork said:

Please bear in mind I am trying this as a self learning challenge, and don’t think I could ever draw a project, which usually requires several revisions, in a financial viable way.

Don't give up on 3D design.  Anything you want to do can be done from the main 3D tool menu.  Try not to get caught up in the 3DTtool Palette and 3D Power Pack.  They come later.

You can accomplish many things with the standard tools.

 

good luck.

[line-weight]

@apswoodwork the issue you describe is a common one. I come up against the same problems modelling windows where i want to be able to change the overall size without distorting the frame profile. In theory the EAP tool lets you do it but frankly it's one of the most horrible tools in vectorworks. Check out plugins like the one jeff prince suggests, to make your life easier.

 

Actually at the moment I'm helping test another similar plugin, that improves on EAP, but it's not been properly released yet. One of the issues with EAPs is that it's very difficult to adjust the "path" geometry relative to surrounding objects. Plus it's just generally prone to failing and not telling you why.

 

Once you get into the swing of doing things in 3d I think you'll find it's better and more satisfying. I made the transition from 2d to 3d a few years ago and wouldn't go back.

 

It can be less work to revise a 3d drawing than a 2d set, because you just adjust the model and then all the plans elevations and sections update themselves (in theory at least). Plus you have the opportunity to visualise the thing in 3d of course, which can sometimes help you to spot things that might be difficult construction-wise in the real world.

Edited March 29 by line-weight

[apswoodwork]

Thanks for all your support. 
What are subdivisions?

Also I never looked into plugins. 

[line-weight]

On 3/29/2024 at 9:37 PM, apswoodwork said:

Thanks for all your support. 
What are subdivisions?

Also I never looked into plugins. 

 

The subdivision tool is mainly intended for freeform modelling but you can also use it for more rectilinear shapes.

 

https://app-help.vectorworks.net/2023/eng/VW2023_Guide/Shapes3/Subdivision_modeling.htm

 

 

 

 

 

[MGuilfoile]

Has anyone told the OP the easy way to adjust the profile--if I understand his question--is to simply double-click the shape and select the 2D profile to edit. He can then edit it, replace it, add new parts, or even cut it into several parts. I do this all the time with Extrude Along Path and other objects with "history." I didn't go through all the posts, but I didn't see one that specifically told him to just double-click the object and then work in the 2D space. Perhaps I'm not understanding the question?

 

MH Brown

[Kevin K]

@MGuilfoile that is a good point. Perhaps that will help @apswoodwork.

Where you can get into trouble if you are not careful,  is adjusting the path object. The path object is directly tied to the original position of the profile in relation to the path object, if that makes sense, so adjusting or resizing the path object can be tricky 🙂

[Tom W.]

33 minutes ago, MGuilfoile said:

Has anyone told the OP the easy way to adjust the profile--if I understand his question--is to simply double-click the shape and select the 2D profile to edit. He can then edit it, replace it, add new parts, or even cut it into several parts. I do this all the time with Extrude Along Path and other objects with "history." I didn't go through all the posts, but I didn't see one that specifically told him to just double-click the object and then work in the 2D space. Perhaps I'm not understanding the question?

 

MH Brown

 

I don't think the shape in question was an EAP because it was thicker on one side than the other. But @VIRTUALENVIRONS's video above demonstrated how to edit an EAP profile if it was. And if the object was an Extrude I said the original 2D shape could be edited inside it rather than attempting to reshape the 3D object:

 

On 3/28/2024 at 8:23 PM, Tom W. said:

If the 3D object has 'history' one option is to edit the 2D shape it was created from (with the Reshape Tool as you describe). So for example if you drew the frame as a 2D shape initially then extruded it outwards, you could double-click on the Extrude to get back to the original 2D shape to edit it.

[apswoodwork]

Thanks for all your support. 
I’ll test these various options to see what works best. I’m still unsure I’ll get proficient enough to draw in 3D anywhere nearly as fast as 2d, but I hear it can be done. 
🤞🏼