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WWDC happened - OpenGL gone

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As expected, not much .... a new watch band and Memoji.

For macOS a dark mode and a bit more privacy for Safari.

 

(How will VW deal with the dark mode ?)

 

But more interesting,

Apple will basically end OpenGL support and force Metal !

(But not bring Vulkan)

 

Will this be the end of all 3D or CAD cross platform Apps ?

Will VW now go Apple or Windows only ?

Will VW (need to) go Metal ?

And DirectX for Windows or Vulkan (+ Linux)

 

Edited by zoomer

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Me too.

As this has also large influence on my future and decisions.

 

This is a real Bummer !

 

Of course we will have a VW 2019 OpenGL VW.

And Maybe another VW 2020.

And maybe all 3D Developers will cry so loud that Apple keeps

a hidden legacy OpenGL API forever.

 

But it is now official that OpenGL and even OpenCL (!) is now legacy,

development ended and everything marked "deprecated" can and

will fly out of macOS at any point.

So you know that every effort you (had) put into OpenGL and OpenCL

is obsolete. If you develop for mac OS - you have to go Metal instead.

 

Similar they pushed people to OpenCL a few years before.

So for OpenGL to Metal you spend 3 years to re-write 80% of your App

(+Windows and Linux version)

and Apple feels in 5 years that Metall is now legacy and uncool again ?

Edited by zoomer

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Dark mode i'm all for!

Sadly though, Apple often deprecates things very early, just one more thing we will have to deal with for them. It very likely means that it will increase OS compatibility issues on the Mac side even further in the next few years. I'll talk with engineering on what the plans are for us specifically, but I'll give them a bit since this news is still hot out of the oven.

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hi there

 

Apple announced that there will no more support for OpenGL in the new MacOS.....will this effect openGL render in Vectorworks??  that would be a tragedy for me personally.....

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I was always propagating that CAD needs a light gray mode.

But I played a bit with Ares Commander and it has a (good looking) dark mode.

Which convinced me that a dark mode works very well in CAD and Wireframe.

 

Also I really like an OS dark mode in my Kubuntu Linux.

Since that I felt my macOS looking very outdated.

(I even like my 10.7.5 better)

So the new dark mode is very welcome and I hope VW can adapt without tedious

work. But honestly, regarding the WWDC Teaser Image, I expected quite a bit more ....

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Not immediately, but at a certain point it will.

Apple can pull the plug at any point starting from 10.15 next year.

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The other topic naming was better than mine though ....

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This whole topic feels somewhat concerning. I guess we'll see how it shakes down. Ultimately I use VW because it was one of the only professional quality Mac-based pieces of CAD software that existed in 1993...... Over the last few years, NV has put all of the eggs (at least the public ones) into OpenGL so I'm sure there will be some consequences.

 

I'm sure there's some serious reasoning behind Apple's decision beyond breaking cross platform compatibility. My guess is that it hinges on the speed needed for augmented reality and the desire to bring together their mobile and desktop platforms.

 

Web based VW here we come 😂

 

Kevin

 

Edited by Kevin McAllister

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1 hour ago, rDesign said:

On a perhaps related side-note, Maxon Cinema 4D R19 supports Metal 2 API as of SP2.

https://www.maxon.net/en/news/maxon-news/article/cinema-4d-service-release-19-sp2-available-immediately/

Did you click on their changelist? Its so beautiful and organized..... @JimW could we have beautiful SP changelists list like this? 🙂

 

Its interesting to read how broad based the improvements are because of Metal too.

 

Kevin

 

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2 minutes ago, Kevin McAllister said:

Did you click on their changelist? Its so beautiful and organized..... @JimW could we have beautiful SP changelists list like this? 🙂

 

I did - and had the exact same thought!

 

Not only are their Release Notes more accessible because they're organized by topic, but each fix is clearly written out, not just a verbatim transcription of the filed bug report (which is what the Vw release notes appear to be). I'm guessing that the Vw SP Release notes are poorly written because they're probably written by us!

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1 hour ago, rDesign said:

On a perhaps related side-note, Maxon Cinema 4D R19 supports Metal 2 API as of SP2.

https://www.maxon.net/en/news/maxon-news/article/cinema-4d-service-release-19-sp2-available-immediately/

 

Ha,

was totally excited when I read this.

Immediately opened my C4D to - see there is no update.

C4D has auto updates and they are normally called just R19.000000001234 or so.

I realized it was from early February.

 

The last time I used C4D was soon after that great update.

And I didn't notice anything positive beside that it did not render my glass reflections*

until Refraction was enabled. Also C4D crashed a lot which I was not used to.

 

(*Thank god no one beside me noticed or mentioned.

That was so embarrassing for me)

Edited by zoomer

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I may be totally wrong.

As far I understood it like this, with out any judging any party.

 

Apple had an old OpenGL in the past.

Developers complained and asked for a new faster OpenGL.

Apple did so - but cleaned up all legacy code*.

All 3D Apps are full legacy OpenGL crap code everywhere.

So switching to Apples updated OpenGL would mean to re-write large parts

of the whole App. Which developers didn't and stayed with Apples legacy

OpenGL until today. (which still worked pretty ok)

 

Beside OpenGL for 3D Graphics, Apple went OpenCL to use GPU power for

other calculations. Also Windows supports OpenGL.

Most Apps use better CUDA anyway.

Cool Apps like VRAY use CUDA because it is better but also develop an

OpenCL version for Mac. Finally OpenCL support on Mac is crap and not

all needed features are running. So no VRAY GPU rendering on Mac.

Open CL alternative for AMD users on Windows running fine !

 

 

* If I get that right,

OpenGL is a very broad API that does not only offer 3D acceleration but

also will be used for features like display of UI elements like Cross Hair Cursor

display, Palettes over 3D views, ....

Newer APIs like DirectX (?), Metal and Vulcan do not offer all these features.

So leaving OpenGL for some Apps means rewriting and designing or licensing

(RedSDK ?) their own Window/UI Kit.

(Like Modo, C4D, Bricscad, ....)

 

And there is the chance,

as once that UI is developed, it is no more dependent on foreign OpenGL API which

you don't have control over. On the other hand now dealing on newer GPU APIs

just means (simplified) sending triangles to GPU only.

Which can mean easier adaption to use of different APIs like DirectX for Windows,

Vulkan to Linux and Metal for macOS to reach cross platform support.

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Kevin McAllister said:

Did you click on their changelist? Its so beautiful and organized..... @JimW could we have beautiful SP changelists list like this? 🙂

 

Its interesting to read how broad based the improvements are because of Metal too.

 

Kevin

 

 

37 minutes ago, rDesign said:

 

I did - and had the exact same thought!

 

Not only are their Release Notes more accessible because they're organized by topic, but each fix is clearly written out, not just a verbatim transcription of the filed bug report (which is what the Vw release notes appear to be). I'm guessing that the Vw SP Release notes are poorly written because they're probably written by us!

 

 

Do you folks really prefer this way? Id thought about it before but it just seemed like it made things visually pleasing but still wasn't super informative.

 

Also... This is kind of a spoiler but I already have a list of over 1300 bugs (and counting) fixed in 2019... Maybe I need some intern minions to help me tidy the list up.

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1 minute ago, JimW said:

Do you folks really prefer this way? Id thought about it before but it just seemed like it made things visually pleasing but still wasn't super informative.

 

I like that its visually pleasing and organized. I don't personally mind if its still the slightly esoteric descriptions we get now though I can see the advantage to both.

 

(I think in generally as a designer I always prefer something that feels designed. Its like how many of us love how the interface looks in the marketing videos. Its a feeling that something was designed by designers for designers instead of feeling like it was assembled by engineers for designers.)

 

1 minute ago, JimW said:

 

Also... This is kind of a spoiler but I already have a list of over 1300 bugs fixed in 2019... Maybe I need some intern minions to help me tidy the list up.

 

This is awesome! I will always support more minions for you....

 

Kevin

 

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Yes,

that sorting is nice.

e.g. for VW Fixes I may be interested in Modeling and Rendering only but not 2D and calculations.

Like for C4D I can ignore everything MoGraph as it is not included in my C4D Arch anyway.

Edited by zoomer

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30 minutes ago, JimW said:

Do you folks really prefer this way? Id thought about it before but it just seemed like it made things visually pleasing but still wasn't super informative.

 

Also... This is kind of a spoiler but I already have a list of over 1300 bugs (and counting) fixed in 2019... Maybe I need some intern minions to help me tidy the list up.

 

Personally, I do. But I think there could be a balance between legibility and informative.

 

While C4D's release notes might be too generic, the Vw Release Notes are unintelligible to anyone but the Software Engineer responsible for the fix. (eg. VB-147367 - GetWorkingPlanePlanarRefID uses gDC, but is called from multithreaded drawing code). Huh?

 

Wish list created: 

 

Edited by rDesign
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7 hours ago, zoomer said:

* If I get that right,

OpenGL is a very broad API that does not only offer 3D acceleration but

also will be used for features like display of UI elements like Cross Hair Cursor

display, Palettes over 3D views, ....

Newer APIs like DirectX (?), Metal and Vulcan do not offer all these features.

So leaving OpenGL for some Apps means rewriting and designing or licensing

(RedSDK ?) their own Window/UI Kit.

(Like Modo, C4D, Bricscad, ....)

 

So given the writing has been on the wall for a while for this change to low level API's. I'd assume from everything that has been said about it, that Vectorworks Graphic Module was developed to be a replacement to what parts of OpenGL Vectorworks relied on that weren't to be covered in newer API's. Including licensing GUI parts used in the App cross platform.

 

So to me the issue is. Is VGM ready for OpenGL to disappear?

 

 

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17 hours ago, rDesign said:

On a perhaps related side-note, Maxon Cinema 4D R19 supports Metal 2 API as of SP2.

https://www.maxon.net/en/news/maxon-news/article/cinema-4d-service-release-19-sp2-available-immediately/

 

OK, I looked into it.

 

There is now Metal replacing only the "OpenCL" part of C4D,

which is used fore GPU power of AMD ProRender.

I still assume, the rest of C4D is still OpenGL.

 

Maxon commented similar to @JimW,

Again another bit harder for us to provide feature parity between platforms.

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Thanks @JimW !

Nice to read that the, now more complicated, Mac platform is still worth to support.

(Although I personally could have lived with an other answer very well too)

 

1.

This is very nice for users as it should be fastest.

But means more work for VW to also support a Windows platform, demanding anything

other than Apple's Metal.

2.

I think that is great because Vulkan should be still faster than OpenGL, although their translating

API layer on top with some loss (according to Khronos), to circumference Apples non-support.

(As long as Apple will not prohibit)

Also Vulkan is "cross platform" and open - beside that Apple rejects supporting.

But it opens easy access to Linux in the future - yeah !

3.

I don't mind how a Shaded 3D View Mode is called.

If it is called after its API, or anything trendy or if it keeps its well known name although it is provided

by Vulkan now. I think at the end these new APIs are easier to support than complicated OpenGL

and should be also faster.

 

So it turns out like bad news for developers only and good news for users (?)

 

 

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15 hours ago, JimW said:

To give some general feedback:

1) Engineering had already planned to transition to Metal on the Mac side, this might bump it earlier as far as a timetable goes but thats really all.

2) We will likely take advantage of Vulkan for our graphics (which can be made to run on top of Metal I am told, however I have little to no understanding of this) so as to not duplicate work across Mac and Windows platforms.
3) Since I was asked in a few other mediums: No this change doesn't mean that the OpenGL view specifically will disappear, it may just get a new name. Its functionality will simply be recreated via a new means.

great!.... and while you do this, could you ask your programmer to have a coloured edges mode as well...;-) (white edge on a black object)

 

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Does this mean that Windows users will also benefit from this Apple decision? Will the Windows version of Vectorworks switch to Vulkan at the same time?
Will Vulkan mode benefit from multi-core processors because of its basic multi-threading capability?

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