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Hans Jakob M?ller

Renderworks overhaul?

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I wrote about this topic to the wish list forum months ago but didn't receive a single reply. Maybe it's the wrong forum, so I try again:

I think it's about time for a major overhaul of RenderWorks including:

' Faster and more user friendly global illumination

' Ambient occlusion, screen space (SSAO) and model space

' Baking of global illumination, with this you could make

high quality realtime walkthroughs directly in VW.

' Realtime/ GPU-rendered global illumination

' Object animation (for people, cars, sky etc.)Why doesn't

Nemetschek buy the Animationworks solution from

www.ozcad.com.au

' Daylight system with sun and sky lighting

' Sky generator with clouds

' Physically accurate materials, caustics, subsurface

scattering etc.

' A lot of this is already there in www.lightworkdesign.com so why is

it not integrated in RW.

' Add more yourself....

There are some good reasons for this:

Stop customers escaping to standalone redering solutions.

There are some great advantages with integrated rendering.

' The trend is towards interactiveness and it's a good trend. With BIM you make canges to the model hundreds of time during the design prosess and you want both to see and communicate the results fast and without delays. Exporting to another applicatin, maybe texturing and mapping over again each time is delay and it's counter-interactive. The time when we completed all design phases in 2D and made some glossy visualizations in the end to sell the finished flats are over.

. There is no reason why VectorWorks should have a renderer inferior to Revit (Mental ray), Artlantis, Sketchup (with integrated V-ray) etc. Renderworks is based on Lightwork and LW has realtime global illumination so lets get all the good suff we can get out of LW. Maybe LW can't keep up with giants like Mental ray or V-ray, but an up to date integrated renderer would be an important competitive edge against Revit, Autocad, Archicad and the rest

Edited by Hans Jakob M?ller

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I agree. Nowadays clients want to see the photorealistic rendering package FIRST and then you can draft stuff up. This makes porting in from another program a bad idea because there are going to be inherent factors with the import that will slow you down in the actual drawing phase. Starting in VW and going back and forth between it and another renderer is cumbersome. So the solution is for Renderworks to be faster, better.

Everyone is going to have multi core processors in a few years. That Renderworks only utilizes those cores in raytracing mode, and that it isn't 64 bit aware is not a good thing. It means we will all be using hot rod computers but unable to use them because we are chained to the limits of the software.

Oh, I'd also like to add to your list, the ability to export layers and alpha channels in a rendering.

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I couldn't agree more.

I've been seriously considering a third-party rendering application like Artlantis or C4D because renderings in VW are so slow and results are not up to current-day standards. If I do get third-party app, I'll be dropping RW (hear me, NNA?).

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I second all these points, it would be great also if RW could be run separately from VW (somehow) so that drafting is possible during rendering.

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The inclusion of fractal generators would go along way to solving many of the 'realism' issues.

For example, fractal representations of trees, sky, clouds, terrain, flames, water, and roads are possible.

Dynamic fractal texture mapping provides true scalability.

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RW is a painfull part of VW and a serious ouverhaul is a must.

I'm just afraid what happens to VW if NNA puts efforts in RW.

I don't want to be unfair, but I have the impression, that problems cured in one place causes Probelms in other Places.

So I'm not shure if it wouldn't be better if NNA gives us a smart interface to a 3rd Party render app, and put all the efforts in testing VW,

and repairing timeconsuming missbehaviours like unrotation Symbols,

3 Stair tools each with different issues...

....Maxon already belongs to Nemetschek...

in the German Version Animationworks is already integrated,

there is also a tool called symbol line, that allows to draw zigzag, wave and other lines...

I'm also surprised, that RW is based on Lightworksdesign...

why don't we get what it is able to...?

just thoughts.

even with all the whining im happy to have VW2010.

Edited by Horst M.

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So why don't they just bundle Renderworks Lite with VW (which would be what it is now) and offer a standalone Renderworks that ports the models seamlessly (like it does now) only with more of the bells and whistles that everyone is asking for?

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I second all these points, it would be great also if RW could be run separately from VW (somehow) so that drafting is possible during rendering.

Agreed. Running multiple projects on a single machine means that rendering time on one often disrupts workflow on others.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know how NNA (or is it NVW?) get their information on which to base their development strategy? Have any forum members been approached for their feedback or are "marketing consultants" used? Just curious.

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I second all these points, it would be great also if RW could be run separately from VW (somehow) so that drafting is possible during rendering.

Amen to that! Ive also never been able to do a Final Quality Radiosity render its just too much for my computer.

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Have we been herad.....?

http://planet.vectorworks.net/2010/09/nemetschek-vectorworks-inc-announces-partnership-with-maxon-computer/

The question is just, if we also have a interface to do rendering in C4d

or if my investment in C4D Architecture is a payment for my impatience in RW

and now worthless.

Because besides fast Rendering ther is also the Shaders, Materials Texturemapping in C4d much smarter than in RW.

We will see..

Edited by Horst M.

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I'm very excited about this regardless. I'm sure it will be a lite version compared to all that C4D can do, but if they have integrated the engine and textures, then one can hope that you won't have to remap everything when porting back and forth.

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I'm just pleased it may now be fast enough to be an asset rather than "maybe I won't render this now I'll wait until tonight......!!!"

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Congratualtions folks, it seems as if we've been heard.

Only one question: The Prime version of Cinema 4d does not have global illumination. Could we expect more than this, like the advanced rendering capabilties of Cinema 4D Visualize, in RenderWorks 2011? If not, it means that in RW 2010 we had global illumination (radiosity, final gather and HDRI lighting, even if Radiosity hardly works at all) and in RW 2011 we have not. Global illumination is absolutely necessary to create a realistic interior rendering. If we have to buy an additional C4D Visualize lisence to get it, which is maybe 5 times the prize of RenderWorks, we'll have a very expensive solution which is still not integrated in Vectorworks.

Exporting to other renderers is nothing new, Artlantis has been there for decades.

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I feel confident we will get C4D x .80

But I still am pretty enticed. Am waiting for the release to find out what has changed application-wide.

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Overhaul may be good, how about just fixing RenderWorks so the features actually work ??? My biggest concern is not the rendering speed but the

complexity with RenderWorks texture placement and many bugs / issues that exist in VW / RW 2010. We are looking at going back to Art-Lantis. Because the speed we need is in the creation process, not the computer time to make the rendering. (although this added speed would be nice).

Examples: There are three distinct issues with the malfunctioning Attribute Mapping Tool. Texture size vs object size. (Disappearing handles) Object location vs Zero - Zero. (Disappearing shader) ... and the switch required from the default Perimeter to Planar. (Disappearing map). All know "Bugs". We typically work outside RenderWorks (Photoshop) as much as possible to limit the interaction with the Mapping controls.

Also: Shader Scale change induces unwanted changes in the Delta X and Y.

Why: Textures apply at different origins for some similar shaped object. (Extruded Lines as an example)

And I have never seen the "Align Selected Mappings" option work. A feature that would be useful in our discipline. (Send me an example is you got one...)

One of My big texturing complaints with Form Z (when I used it) was the numerical dialogs. Excess amount of guessing and entering numbers then guessing again, again and again. When RenderWorks came along it inherited this convoluted logic. (Lightworks?) Where a change on the screen does not always equate to a change in the Object Info. Where the snaps in the drawing are not the same in the texture mapping.

Overhaul? Sure, start by fixing the bugs.

Peter

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We're also looking at Artlantis.....among others because it is a stand alone renderer meaning that rendering can take place while still actively drafting and several people can work on the same project at the same time, (Artlantis simply updates the model when it is changed while keeping all existing settings....very useful!)

Edited by Vincent C

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HDR images are really important to me and while Renderworks was difficult in many ways, adding an HDR scene was not hard. Hopefully we will be able to continue this in Vwk 2011 and not take a big step backwards in this regard. Speed won't matter if a key feature is missing, is substantially more complex to use or costs lots more to buy as an add on.

Here are some C4D HDRI tutorials:

http://www.maxoncomputer.com/tutorial_detail.asp?tutorialID=241

http://cinema4dtutorials.com/rendering/hdri-lighting/

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