Approaching the Wall Tool vs Solid Extrusions

[InchSw3]

Hi there, 

I am needing some help with a project I am working on. 

I am struggling to know how to 3D model the attached building. This floor plan shown originates from an architects' plans which I have re-traced. Because of the 'trickiness' and complexity of the building (lots of indentations etc) I thought to initially extrude polygons in order to create walls etc, but given the number of windows in the house / potential future level changes I thought it might be better to use the wall tool and then insert Georgian sash windows. What would be the approach you would take? I have tried to use the wall tool but when it comes to setting different wall widths for each section I am having a nightmare. Any advice would be more than appreciated. Attaching model if anybody needs to see it / show anything in particular. Thanks! 

 

2024-04_Wick House_MODEL.vwx

[Tom W.]

This is all doable with Wall/Doors/Windows.

 

The internally curved walls shown in the file (but not in your screenshot) could be achieved with Wall Recesses:

 

 

Not the easiest project to be embarking on so depends how much hair you're willing to pull out + overtime you're willing to put in to get there... What is it about Walls with different widths that you're finding a nightmare?

 

 

[InchSw3]

Thanks Tom. 

I'm struggling with using the wall tool because I go around the perimeter. Then I select each 'segment' and input the thickness, but then that thickness goes beyond perimeter line, i.e. from the central line the wall gets thicker 50% either side, rather than just 100% on the inner boundary line. Not sure if that makes sense. What am I doing wrong? 

 

Agreed, not the easiest project but hopefully if I get one floor sorted I'll be able to duplicate most of the work.

 

Thanks

[Tom W.]

8 minutes ago, InchSw3 said:

I'm struggling with using the wall tool because I go around the perimeter. Then I select each 'segment' and input the thickness, but then that thickness goes beyond perimeter line, i.e. from the central line the wall gets thicker 50% either side, rather than just 100% on the inner boundary line. Not sure if that makes sense. What am I doing wrong? 

 

Makes complete sense + it's something I find annoying too. I think I've raised it previously but perhaps not as a Wishlist item... When you replace one styled wall for another (or edit an existing style) you get the option of determining whether the replacement wall will align centrally, to the left side or to the right side of the existing wall. It would be great to have the same option when you edit the width of an unstyled wall rather than the alignment be central by default. You're not doing anything wrong. All you can do is edit the thickness in the Wall Preferences (wrench + pencil icon) before drawing the Wall. Actually... it would be great for those of us who spend a lot of time modelling existing (old) buildings to be able to interactively resize an unstyled Wall's thickness like you can (now) with Doors + Windows...!

[shorter]

Why use the wall tool for existing?  Unless the existing wall is prone to shape-shifting, solids are far better for 'existing' conditions given walls are pre-disposed to be straight and vertical and existing buildings rarely are.

[Tom W.]

21 minutes ago, shorter said:

solids are far better for 'existing' conditions

 

Not in my opinion.

[InchSw3]

@shorterThanks. How would you approach this then? Creating polygons and then individually modelling Georgian sash windows and resizing based on the existing aperture? 

In my case, the 3D model doesn't need to be perfect. I will be using it more to take viewports of specific perspectives that I will then 'render' in Photoshop. This said, the floor plan itself needs to be perfect and reflect the reality of the house. I don't want separate 2D / 3D models. I want one model that I can toggle between 3D and 2D (Floor Plans / Elevations). 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

I normally defer to experts like Tom on posts like this, but if you are moving towards a solid modelled and not a "walls and roofs" solution, I have some experience in this area.

 

Having said that, you can't have the best of both worlds.  Each has its strength, "Walls and roofs", easier but constrained to what VW's can do.  Solids, harder, but unlimited.

 

Your model can be fully editable, but you would have to do some extra work for line styles, etc.

 

I am not an architect, but have been pulled into it on complex designs, see below.

 

I am happy to help on the modelling aspect if required.

 

 

 

 

[Jeff Prince]

20 hours ago, InchSw3 said:

Hi there, 

I am needing some help with a project I am working on. 

I am struggling to know how to 3D model the attached building. This floor plan shown originates from an architects' plans which I have re-traced. Because of the 'trickiness' and complexity of the building (lots of indentations etc) I thought to initially extrude polygons in order to create walls etc, but given the number of windows in the house / potential future level changes I thought it might be better to use the wall tool and then insert Georgian sash windows. What would be the approach you would take? I have tried to use the wall tool but when it comes to setting different wall widths for each section I am having a nightmare. Any advice would be more than appreciated. Attaching model if anybody needs to see it / show anything in particular. Thanks! 

 

2024-04_Wick House_MODEL.vwx 3.11 MB · 2 downloads

if you don’t need the data functionality walls provide and will not be changing the walls, it would likely be faster to model the existing conditions as solids.  You could still use the door and window tool to place free floating items on openings you would have to manually subtract from the solid walls.

 

I think it all depends on your final output.  If it’s a rendering job with some simple floor plans, modeling. If it’s primarily an architectural project with detailed plans, sections, interior elevations, and takeoffs… BIM approach fo show.

[InchSw3]

Thanks to all for your comments. 
I've started using @Tom W.'s approach of using the wall tool, trying to simplify things a little. See attached model (Design Layer (NEW GF PLAN - WALL TOOL)). 
I have created the first set of windows by essentially tracing a to scale elevation (Original Plans PDF) and have duplicated these across the bay window by saving the window as a style. Given the house has lots of different sized windows, but similar/same 'style' (e.g. mullions and transoms, Georgian sash), is this the best way to do this? There must be a better way for me to be able to resize each window individually?

 

2024-04_Wick House_MODEL.vwx

[Tom W.]

7 minutes ago, InchSw3 said:

There must be a better way for me to be able to resize each window individually?

 

Make the size parameters by instance 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

2 hours ago, InchSw3 said:

better way for me to be able to resize each window individually?

 

The Casing

If there were lots of windows that were similar, but different sizes, I would create one window using Extrude Along Path (EAP).  I would edit it so the path was the outside on the casing.  Then all you have to do is increase the size of the Path. 

 

The Panes,

The same could be done for the individual panes and they could be symbols.  Then, just some basic math to recreate all the panes.

 

I make this sound simpler than it is, if you have not done this before.  But, this is how you learn.

 

 

 

[zoomer]

2 hours ago, InchSw3 said:

There must be a better way for me to be able to resize each window individually?

 

You can select and edit multiple Windows via Window Settings or in OIP at a time.

That is what we did before we had Styles.

 

 

2 hours ago, InchSw3 said:

and have duplicated these across the bay window by saving the window as a style. Given the house has lots of different sized windows, but similar/same 'style' (e.g. mullions and transoms, Georgian sash),

 

Yes, Styles are great.

Styles are mainly to define the character of the Windows.

E.g. one Style for your Wood Windows and another for your Metal Windows.

To define Jamb dimensions, offsets, Material Classes, ....

While overall Window dimensions, Sash configurations and such stuff  will be

unlocked in Style and edited selectively for each Window.

 

However, at a certain complexity it may make sense to create more than one

single Style for "Wood Windows".

It has the disadvantage that when really something like a Jamb thickness

has to be changed - you have to update 2 Styles.

But you may have advantages to group other Settings and lock it to "by Style"

and faster switch multiple "sub Style" Windows in one go.

[Tom W.]

Interactive Sizing Insertion Mode for Doors/Windows (added in VW2023) is great in these circumstances because you can size the PIOs as you insert them, assuming you have a survey underlay you are tracing over or other guides you can click to.

[michaelk]

Have you tried using pillar objects?  Draw any polygon or polyline.  AEC>Pillar… > give it a height.

 

This helps with irregularly shaped walls.  Regular wills will join to Pillars using the Wall Join tool.

[InchSw3]

1 hour ago, michaelk said:

Have you tried using pillar objects?  Draw any polygon or polyline.  AEC>Pillar… > give it a height.

 

This helps with irregularly shaped walls.  Regular wills will join to Pillars using the Wall Join tool.

Clever, thanks

[shorter]

13 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

Not in my opinion.

 

Depends on the subject matter...and how high you set your bar, I suppose, and what you consider acceptable as a base to coordinate your work against and what quality of drawing you want from the model.

 

15th century cottage with no vertical walls, and with huge deflection in floors and joists = 3D model.

 

If the existing building is 'virtually' vertical and horizontal, I might consider walls and slabs but it is not necessary other than for expedience.

 

An existing wall does not change, unless it is demolished, or rebuilt, or clad or lined, in which case the new bit is a 'wall object'.  Existing bit does not need to be.  It can remain a solid.  There is less risk of it being modified inadvertently when a wall object updates.

 

[Tom W.]

25 minutes ago, shorter said:

15th century cottage with no vertical walls, and with huge deflection in floors and joists = 3D model.

 

Agreed. If you want a faithful representation of such a building + are not looking to add/remove/modify the geometry then this is the way to go, and an approach I've taken on one particular project.

 

25 minutes ago, shorter said:

An existing wall does not change, unless it is demolished, or rebuilt, or clad or lined, in which case the new bit is a 'wall object'.  Existing bit does not need to be.  It can remain a solid.  There is less risk of it being modified inadvertently when a wall object updates.

 

My experience is that if you are going to be combining existing + proposed architecture in the same model, adding/removing/modifying walls/doors/windows/floors/roofs + looking to produce separate 'as existing' + 'proposed' drawings, then it's preferable to do it all using Wall/Slab/Roof objects. I personally would not be modelling the existing architecture using 3D Solids unless I had a very good reason for doing so which in my case has only been one project so far.

 

Remember, existing architecture is often just as complex as the new elements + involves multiple components: presumably you wouldn't advocate modelling these build-ups manually? Plus what about tagging + reporting on those objects? Analysing existing + proposed thermal performance etc? What about Top/Plan representation of the different objects?

 

My point is that it's misleading + inaccurate to simply say 'solids are far better for existing conditions' but I think you've qualified that statement now + we're probably kind of in agreement, just coming at it from different positions/workflows.

 

 

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

I have used this method over the years to quickly resize objects of a similar size.  It takes a little time up front and you have to do the math yourself, but gives you a lot of flexibility.  

It is all done with EAP, but the profile object needs to be adjusted to sit inside the frame and window frame.  The path is centred on the grilles.

 

 

 

[InchSw3]

Attaching my model again to see whether any previous commenters can help. 

I am modelling only parts of this house however all floors will require 2D plans. The issue I am having now is that I have used layers for each floor and then subsequently 'positioned' each floor on top of each other, allowing for a 'slab' to act as the ceiling and joist cavity between each floor ('SLABS' in classes). Now that I am starting to use 2D dwg files, I am finding that the 2D object is automatically inserting at level 0 on the X axis, and not at the required floor level.

 

Looking at the model, would someone care to explain how I can achieve a result whereby I am able to build this model in 3D for the rooms that will require rendering, and 2D elsewhere, making it easy to insert objects/shapes/walls etc per floor/layer? 

 

I'm also having issues with the 'slab' being above any objects when in top plan.

 

Welcome any other advice on the model as well! 

 

Many thanks!

 

2024-04_Wick House_MODEL.vwx

Edited May 9 by InchSw3

[Jeff Prince]

1 hour ago, InchSw3 said:

Now that I am starting to use 2D dwg files, I am finding that the 2D object is automatically inserting at level 0 on the X axis, and not at the required floor level.

 

You should set your design layer to a specific elevations.  Then your 2D stuff will sit at the correct Z value.

All of yours are set to z=0 and you have adjusted the tops and bottoms of walls, I don't know why you would want to do that as it is a lot of work and very hard to keep track of compared to using Layer Elevation or Stories (I wouldn't use stories at this point, it's probably too much to learn).

 

1 hour ago, InchSw3 said:

Looking at the model, would someone care to explain how I can achieve a result whereby I am able to build this model in 3D for the rooms that will require rendering, and 2D elsewhere, making it easy to insert objects/shapes/walls etc per floor/layer? 

 

1 hour ago, InchSw3 said:

I'm also having issues with the 'slab' being above any objects when in top plan.

Put your slabs on their own design layers based on the floor they exist on.  This will give you the ability to turn them on and off as needed.  You can also adjust their order relative to other design layers by dragging them above/below the stack.  Then you don't have to worry about "draw order" when they are all sitting on the same layer with their walls.

 

1 hour ago, InchSw3 said:

Welcome any other advice on the model as well! 

Assign your Design Layers to an appropriate elevation as mentioned earlier.

[InchSw3]

Thanks @Jeff Prince. 

 

This makes sense and understand now what you mean about adjusting tops and bottom of walls. I have no idea how I have ended up doing this. I have tried setting the elevations of each layers but now I am cursed by the 'bot offset' on the walls. I.e. the levels are incorrect as a result (i.e. X+offset). 

What is the best way forwards so I can have each layer exactly at the ceiling heights I have currently? 

Much appreciated, again.

[Monadnoc]

I would recommend working through Wes Gardner's tutorials pinned at the top of this Forum, especially "No Stories, No Problem". It will explain a lot (Hopefully they are still available, they are pretty old now). The understanding of how Layers and their settings (Elevation especially) work is essential to working in Vectorworks for any kind of architectural modeling. You probably should investigate a few of the Basic/Beginning tutorials in general on YouTube and the VW Learning site also. It will be well worth the time invested. Vectorworks is a very complicated program, and without some basic understanding of how it works, you will spend many frustrating hours banging your head against the wall.

Edited May 9 by Monadnoc

[Jeff Prince]

2 hours ago, InchSw3 said:

What is the best way forwards so I can have each layer exactly at the ceiling heights I have currently? 

 

x2 on @Monadnoc's recommendations.

Invest time in fixing the layer and object settings.  Here's a quick video on how to go about doing it.

Had to upload to Youtube because the site wouldn't allow it to upload for some reason.

This should be live shortly...

 

https://youtu.be/NIkVZTRLCj8

 

 

[InchSw3]

Jeff, I'm so grateful for this. Thank you so much.