How to get plant image props to render at night correctly?

[Tom W.]

Super helpful + interesting @Katarina Ollikainen! It would be really cool to see a sample file illustrating what you're describing: if I understand correctly you treat the 2D planting plans + 3D 'illustrations' separately in the model, using your 'proper' individual Plants for the former + 3D-only 'concept' Plants in the form of Landscape Areas for the latter...? If/when you had time to post something... Thank you.

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Tom W., The important thing is not to double up on individual plants. I keep all my 'smaller' plant styles (perennials, grasses, bulbs, etc.) without 3D. These are what I use for the planting plan (a planting plan is essentially a construction drawing, and the focus should be on the data and geometry, not the illustration).

Then, I use my illustration landscape areas for the illustrations and let them do double work by using the components for quantities.

However, for trees and large shrubs (or other big structural plants I want to emphasise in 3D), I set up a proper 3D geometry (Laubwerk Proxy) and use them directly as they are, both for the planting plan and illustrations. This way, even if I have 20 different tree styles, I don't weigh down the file with unnecessary resources.

I think the most important thing is to get away from the idea that every species needs a different 3D representation - if you work with structure and (green scale) colour in the illustrations, not only will the file be trimmer, but you'll also get a more pleasing render (IMHO) - one of the biggest errors in outdoor renders is to have everything in bloom at the same time - you would hardly ever have this happen in reality, and it can easily make the image look garish.

 

I'll dig out some example files I can share and post them.

 

 

[Tom W.]

15 minutes ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

@Tom W., The important thing is not to double up on individual plants. I keep all my 'smaller' plant styles (perennials, grasses, bulbs, etc.) without 3D. These are what I use for the planting plan (a planting plan is essentially a construction drawing, and the focus should be on the data and geometry, not the illustration).

Then, I use my illustration landscape areas for the illustrations and let them do double work by using the components for quantities.

However, for trees and large shrubs (or other big structural plants I want to emphasise in 3D), I set up a proper 3D geometry (Laubwerk Proxy) and use them directly as they are, both for the planting plan and illustrations. This way, even if I have 20 different tree styles, I don't weigh down the file with unnecessary resources.

I think the most important thing is to get away from the idea that every species needs a different 3D representation - if you work with structure and (green scale) colour in the illustrations, not only will the file be trimmer, but you'll also get a more pleasing render (IMHO) - one of the biggest errors in outdoor renders is to have everything in bloom at the same time - you would hardly ever have this happen in reality, and it can easily make the image look garish.

 

I'll dig out some example files I can share and post them.

 

 

 

I think you need to do one of your excellent videos on this! 🙂

 

Would love to see a file if you can find one + see whether there's anything I can incorporate into my workflow. I am more focussed on the buildings/architecture but still generally want to show planting in 2D + 3D. What you say about how best to do this makes total sense.

 

In the meantime are there any plans to make it so you can turn off crossed planes for IPs in Plants without losing the ability to scale them?

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Tom W., nothing is planned for this, but I can check with the engineers how involved it would be.

[JonKoch]

8 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

The problem is, if you're designing landscapes + producing planting plans, reports, tagging plants, etc you will be using Plant objects + these will generally use Image Props, most of the time without issue. So any 3D plants would (generally speaking) need to be in addition to the Image Props which creates a layer of extra work/management, just for the production of probably only one or two VPs at most, so there is an incentive for getting it to work with Image Props if at all possible. It's not necessarily just a simple case of choosing one or the other. The issue with having to Group IPs in order to turn off crossed planes + then find you can't scale the Plant in the process should really be addressed. No news @Eric Gilbey, PLA, @Scott Lebsack, @Katarina Ollikainen?

To also add on to this, It's much easier for me to create an image prop of all of the plants that are specific to my geographic area rather than relying on the small library of 3D plants or purchasing a 3D plant package that is kind of close to what our office normally uses. 

[JonKoch]

4 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

I think you need to do one of your excellent videos on this! 🙂

 

Would love to see a file if you can find one + see whether there's anything I can incorporate into my workflow. I am more focussed on the buildings/architecture but still generally want to show planting in 2D + 3D. What you say about how best to do this makes total sense.

 

In the meantime are there any plans to make it so you can turn off crossed planes for IPs in Plants without losing the ability to scale them?

@Tom W. @Katarina Ollikainen I agree, a sample file or famous Katarina video would be super helpful! I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this.

[Kevin K]

Jon

Just curious, on any given day, how many plant species do you actually use?

Also, if the VW plant libraries for image props does NOT have a specific plant you need, do you just create your own from some online image of that particular plant?

I had to resort to doing that on several occasions in the past. It was kind of a pain having to clean up an image, add an alpha channel, etc, etc.to get the image prop to look acceptable. 😞

 

In my case, I am sort of a purist in my renderings and don't often use image props.  I am sort of "the real deal' guy 🙂

That said, image props certainly do have their place.

 

Currently I am not using the Design Suite of 2024, only Architect, so I don't have access to the Plant tool, which is specific to the Landmark package, so I have to do things a bit more 'old school' which is not a huge issue for me.

[Tom W.]

22 minutes ago, JonKoch said:

To also add on to this, It's much easier for me to create an image prop of all of the plants that are specific to my geographic area rather than relying on the small library of 3D plants or purchasing a 3D plant package that is kind of close to what our office normally uses. 

 

1 minute ago, Kevin K said:

Also, if the VW plant libraries for image props does NOT have a specific plant you need, do you just create your own from some online image of that particular plant?

 

I have created loads of my own Image Props for Plant styles this way, by taking photos + removing the background. But I am really keen to see @Katarina Ollikainen's more 'illustrative' approach as she is correct to say that there is a disconnect between placing (for example) trees in plan + it looking right there, then expecting the image props to provide a correspondingly effective representation in 3D... As she says you need a lot more of them in 3D to get it looking like woodland.

[JonKoch]

12 minutes ago, Kevin K said:

Jon

Just curious, on any given day, how many plant species do you actually use?

Also, if the VW plant libraries for image props does NOT have a specific plant you need, do you just create your own from some online image of that particular plant?

I had to resort to doing that on several occasions in the past. It was kind of a pain having to clean up an image, add an alpha channel, etc, etc.to get the image prop to look acceptable. 😞

 

In my case, I am sort of a purist in my renderings and don't often use image props.  I am sort of "the real deal' guy 🙂

That said, image props certainly do have their place.

 

Currently I am not using the Design Suite of 2024, only Architect, so I don't have access to the Plant tool, which is specific to the Landmark package, so I have to do things a bit more 'old school' which is not a huge issue for me.

@Kevin K As a landscape architect, we often develop pretty diverse and complex planting plans so we have an extensive plant library. We get photos from online or take photos in the field and remove the backgrounds in photoshop and then create image props that way. I typically won't separate out varieties of one type of plant unless they are vastly different but to answer your question, we do use a lot of different plants. 

[Kevin K]

Oh, also, here is the same image I posted earlier, but with a bit more ambient lighting. Again, the reason I like real 3d plants is the lighting and shadowing is much richer that what an image prop can show. Leaves and branches, etc are darker where the light isn't hitting them because there is more fullness to the plant.

For whatever reason, if you want the file, let me know. I took a basic VW 3d path light and tweaked it a bit using a spot light inside the fixture to get that lighting look on the plants and the ground surface.

-Kev

 

 

...and here is a screenshot without any lighting in daylight...

 

[Dave Donley]

@Kevin K I would like the file please, thanks!

[Kevin K]

Dave D....happy to provide you with the file...but I am curious why you would want it ?  🙂

 

FYI, it is basically the file @JonKoch had sent me and I added some data, lighting, etc so there are a few additional design layers and viewports.. Again, this all started and was directed to obtaining some thoughts on how better to set up an after dark rendering pertaining to plants.  

 

I zipped the file to keep the file size somewhat smaller.

Have at it! 🙂

 

 

Full Glow No Crossed Planes-KEV.vwx.zip

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

@Kevin K

HI Kevin,

Does VW 2023 or 24  have Alpha channel and luminance?  

 

[Kevin K]

Hey Paul...uh...not exactly sure what you are asking ??

You mean pertaining to creating image prop masking?? IF so, yes you can include / utilize alpha channels, and by "luminance' it accomplishes that by using the 'glow' option pertaining to reflectivity..

That what you meant??

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

1 minute ago, Kevin K said:

That what you meant??

Maybe.

I have been following this thread out of interest.  How gaming companies got their speed in the early years was simply painting on 2D planes.  The video below explains, done in C4D.  There is a 3D tree and a plane.  They both render the same.

 

I rendered the first tree with an alpha channel.  Brought it back in and put it on the plane and activated Alpha and Luminance.

 

Is this is the area of what we are talking about here. 

 

 

[Kevin K]

Paul

Yes, for the most part that is what was being bantered around here ...the difference / pros / cons  between using an image prop for a plant (a photo of the plant attached to a flat plane) versus using an actual 3d plant...which is what I used in those images I posted.  I didn't use an image prop.Image props usually have less data involved, which an keep the overall file size less which is why a lot of people prefer that approach.

[Tom W.]

Just now, Kevin K said:

Paul

Yes, for the most part that is what was being bantered around here ...the difference / pros / cons  between using an image prop for a plant (a photo of the plant attached to a flat plane) versus using an actual 3d plant...which is what I used in those images I posted.  I didn't use an image prop.Image props usually have less data involved, which an keep the overall file size less which is why a lot of people prefer that approach.

 

Plus it is how all the Plants in the VW plant libraries are set up so is generally what most people are using I imagine (people using Plants that is i.e. doing BIM landscape work).

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Yes, I only use/used 3D trees, but I had to create a movie scene a few years ago, where a jet flew over northern Canada.  I needed fifteen thousand trees.  What I used there were image props with a "look at Camera" tag attached.  Worked well.

 

Is there a way in VW's to make objects look at the camera?

[Kevin K]

Paul

indeed, image props have an option to always be facing the view, perpendicular to that camera view.

Maybe you should import an image prop of a plant or tree into a blank VW file to see how it all works.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

3 minutes ago, Kevin K said:

Maybe you should import an image prop of a plant or tree into a blank VW file to see how it all works.

I'd have to figure out how to import the image prop.  Anyway all good stuff.

[Kevin K]

Paul

What version of VW are you using? I could just send you a few image props and you can select one and note the settings in the object info palette.

Let me know. 
The process to import them is pretty simple.  You just need to open your Resource Browser and search for the content area that has 3d Image Props.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

HI Kevin,

Thank you for the offer, but I would never use it.  But, I'll take a rain cheque on that offer in case I ever have to use them.

 

I still use VW18 most of the time due to NURBS stability.  Have an NFR of 2022.

 

regards....Paul

[Dave Donley]

22 hours ago, Kevin K said:

Dave D....happy to provide you with the file...but I am curious why you would want it ?  🙂

 

FYI, it is basically the file @JonKoch had sent me and I added some data, lighting, etc so there are a few additional design layers and viewports.. Again, this all started and was directed to obtaining some thoughts on how better to set up an after dark rendering pertaining to plants.  

 

I zipped the file to keep the file size somewhat smaller.

Have at it! 🙂

 

 

Full Glow No Crossed Planes-KEV.vwx.zip 30.67 MB · 0 downloads

 

I like the 3D plants and I want to try turning on some lit fog.  🙂 

[Kevin K]

Dave

Good idea!!

I didn't bother with any perspective cam views, or using better rendering settings.  

This was just down & dirty showing some plant lighting options for after the sun set 🙂

That 3d plant I used is from the VW plant library, btw.

Have fun with it! 

[aage.langedrag]

I would strongly recommend using add-ons along with Vectorworks which will provide significantly better quality for viewing models with proper lighting and surroundings. Especially since Vectorworks has live sync to these programs. Have used both Lumion and Twinmotion with very good results. Not least the opportunity to use VR and stand inside the model yourself and adjust lighting, season, etc.

Agree that it should be possible to get realistic images in the VW, but 3D plants inside the VW can quickly bring the whole model to a standstill, so this solution will only work on small models.

These films are old and bad but give a good picture of the possibilities. Especially that we can change the season, time, weather, etc

 

https://youtu.be/gBar9btdmmk?si=45HrcbOQ-U6IX023