How to deal with large areas of meadow?

[Amanda McDermott]

Hello,

 

We have a file that has become extremely slow. VSS are looking into it, but hoping someone here may have a good workaround!

 

NB. The file has its origins set up correctly, and no objects too far from the origins. We have moved our workgroup to dropbox to access it locally rather than over VPN.

 

Speculation is that Vwx is unhappy with the large areas of meadow planting (a few at c.5000m² each), which are one of the things we created shortly before the go-slow. Usually, we have included 'landscape areas' of meadow in projects with little difficulty, by creating a plant named e.g. 'Meadow Mix 1' and assigning it to the landscape area at 1 plant/m², at 100% of that 'species'. Then in data tag/plant schedule, we get 'Xm² Meadow Mix 1'. We think Vwx may be upset by the size of the meadow areas in this project, and the idea that there are thousands of plants... is there something we can do differently to avoid this, but still get the meadow areas included accurately/updated automatically in the data tag and plant schedule?

 

 

 

@Katarina Ollikainen one for you perhaps?

 

 

 

[Pat Stanford]

Completely guessing here, but do you have Show Plants checked in the 2D Display and 3D Display settings for the landscape area?

 

For that large of area could you get by with turning off the plant display and just using a texture or hatch instead? I think VW will still calculate the number of plants required.

 

Or at least try this until you need a very high quality rendering and turn on Display Plants then?

[Amanda McDermott]

33 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

Completely guessing here, but do you have Show Plants checked in the 2D Display and 3D Display settings for the landscape area?

 

For that large of area could you get by with turning off the plant display and just using a texture or hatch instead? I think VW will still calculate the number of plants required.

 

Or at least try this until you need a very high quality rendering and turn on Display Plants then?

Thanks - but no, we don't have any of that turned on, it's just a big block of plain colour!

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Amanda McDermott, do you need this for 3D or 2D only?

[Amanda McDermott]

1 hour ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

@Amanda McDermott, do you need this for 3D or 2D only?

2D only at the moment - in other projects we could need large meadows draped in 3D though!

[unearthed]

I normally just do a cirlcular gradient if I want just a basic grass-like representation, it is unfortunate that VW does not enable multi-node gradients.

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Amanda McDermott, there is a bug at the moment, which makes the landscape area to always carry the geometry of the plants, even if you don't have them activated in 2D. This is being fixed and I'll let you know when it's done. The landscape area is foremost created to avoid the need for using the plant images in 2D and I assume that's the way you want to use them.

However, I also tested the problem in an otherwise empty file and created several areas, with an area of 50 000 m2 (instead of the 5000 you used), and this didn't slow down the file, so I'm wondering if there is something else creating the problem.

 

The use of one plant is exactly how I would recommend doing it, and I assume you haven't added any 3D geometry to this 'mix-plant' with a heavy texture.

[Amanda McDermott]

On 11/5/2023 at 5:49 AM, Katarina Ollikainen said:

@Amanda McDermott, there is a bug at the moment, which makes the landscape area to always carry the geometry of the plants, even if you don't have them activated in 2D. This is being fixed and I'll let you know when it's done. The landscape area is foremost created to avoid the need for using the plant images in 2D and I assume that's the way you want to use them.

However, I also tested the problem in an otherwise empty file and created several areas, with an area of 50 000 m2 (instead of the 5000 you used), and this didn't slow down the file, so I'm wondering if there is something else creating the problem.

 

The use of one plant is exactly how I would recommend doing it, and I assume you haven't added any 3D geometry to this 'mix-plant' with a heavy texture.

Thanks - hopefully the bug fix will resolve it. It does seem to have been to do with the meadow areas, my colleague says VSS helped her to delete the plant from the area and it's sped up the drawing...

[TeeMuki]

This is somehow related to the topic, so i'll ask here...

I'm currently trying to make one large design area to work as fluently as possible.
I have noticed that the large amount of Hardscapes are the most demanding ones to run smoothly, but now im also encountering some issues with the different Landscape areas. I have some memory trace that the Landscape areas setting 3D Display - 3D Polygon would be the "lightest" way to go, but have some one done some research on that? 

So which of these is the better (lighter) way to use:
- 3D Display - 3D Polygon
- 3D Display - Texture Bed

Thank you!

[TeeMuki]

To particularise this better... I'm trying to achieve the most fluent workflow in BIM with relative big design areas.
To give some insight of the scale, i have currently in my project:
60 000 m² Landscape areas
60 000 m² Hardscape areas
1100 Trees
250 000 m² Site Model area

 

I'm running a quite high-end Laptop, but the scale of this project and BIM is taking the best of it 😄
Somehow i feel like Vwx is not utilising my computer as it should. Often the cpu and gpu are running with low usage...
I'm running Vwx 2024 3.1 now, but i think the performance has been worse since a few updates. The project was running better in my opinion with the first 2024 patch. But this is hard to compare, just a feeling...
My computer specs:
Intel i7-13800H (14 cores (6P + 8E), 20 threads, max frequency 5.20 GHz)
32 GB ram 5600 MHz
NVIDIA RTX 3500 12 GB VRAM

I'm trying to find solutions to make this project run as smoothly as possible.
I appreciate all the help i can get! ❤️

Does @Katarina Ollikainen maybe have some input to this Landscape area setting? 😇

Edited February 28 by TeeMuki
more information

[Pat Stanford]

Check and make sure that VW is set to use the NVIDIA card and has not gotten switched to the low power built in graphics.

 

Not certain how you do this on Windows.

[ashot]

Pat please explain how you make VW to use NVIDIA card versus low power built in graphics.

Is this for laptop only, or can be set for desktop Apple Studio for example.

[Pat Stanford]

I have not used a Windows machine in more than passing in over a decade, so I don't know HOW to do it. I only know that there have been several people complain about poor VW performance who it was determined that VW was using the "wrong" video card.

[Thomas W]

Hi,

 

 

Maybe this can help you...

[Katarina Ollikainen]

Hi @TeeMuki, it sounds like an exciting project. 

I'm worthless at advising on Windows machines, so I'll leave that outside this response.

 

The below comments are specifically for BIM projects, as I assume you're more interested in the data and technical side than using the file for illustrations. One thing doesn't eliminate the other, but the focus is different.

 

Strict discipline is important in a large project to avoid file ballooning. Avoid any unnecessary embellishment of your resources. Use simple circles for 2D plants without unnecessary vertices, use generated 3D views for the trees (but avoid the 'sweep' modes - the 'crinkled paper' ones are lighter). I don't even have 3D added to most of my plants as standard - a planting plan is a technical document, not an illustration. Removing image props from your plants will greatly reduce the file size. There are more effective ways to create illustrations for a project than using the planting plan directly.

 

If you're working on a BIM project requiring you to deliver a 3D model, the polygon-with-record-route is not feasible, so Landscape areas/Hardscape are the way to go.

Since an earlier update this year, the LA has been optimised - if you don't show the plants in 2D or 3D, the LA is extremely lightweight. As soon as you add 2D or 3D plants, it gets heavier, and of course, both 2D and 3D is the heaviest. You can have the plants included in the LA without showing them - the data is not heavy, the graphics are.

So from that it follows: if you want to represent large areas of planting in 3D and show the plant volume, I suggest using a component block for the plant - instead of using the individual plant's 3D, simply create a top component (above the datum) called 'Green matter' or similar to your LA (you can make it as thick as the average height of the planting)  - for a BIM model (which is primarily not for illustration but for construction and clash detection), this will work great. This will also help with design decisions, giving you a better idea of volumes and voids in the landscape. There will be some improvements to the LA next year, making this even easier.

Regarding the question about 3D polygon vs texture bed; You can show LA in a few different ways: As components, as texture beds (without components), and as a 3D polygon (without components). The 3D polygon really has no function. If you're working over a site model, you must either have a texture bed or components visible; otherwise, the LA won't be following the site model terrain.

As soon as you decide to show components, these will take over. It then doesn't matter if you have a texture bed or 3D poly (and components are required if you're working in BIM and want to export to ifc).

The setup in the LA dialog is confusing, and this will be simplified next year.

 

If you use hatches for the 2D view, your graphics card might suffer, especially if the project is large - this is the same for both hardscape and Landscape areas. I suggest using plain colour for the 2D and running it with a data viz, adding hatches if you need this for your plans. This makes a huge difference.

 

Apart from this - ensure your site model is optimised as well. Otherwise, this can contribute to a sluggish file.

 

As a comparison - I have a 'stress test' project with a site model at 1471084 m2, 4858 trees, and landscape areas (with and without plants added, so both meadow and dense specified planting) covering most of it, and it runs beautifully. Now, this file doesn't contain all the other niggly things in a file as it focuses on these specific components, but it shows that you can use large areas of planting/hardscape without destroying the performance.

It is a trade-off, I know, but if you're working on a BIM project, data is king, and you must focus on that.

 

 

[Tom W.]

It would be great if you did a Coffee Break on the topics you touch on here @Katarina Ollikainen and/or a sample file!

 

9 minutes ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

instead of using the individual plant's 3D, simply create a top component (above the datum) called 'Green matter' or similar to your LA (you can make it as thick as the average height of the planting)  

 

I'm not sure I totally understand this can you explain again or provide a screenshot?

 

Thank you!

[Piotr Karczewski]

Dear @Katarina Ollikainen,
It's amazing how You know those things, but as @Tom W. wrote above I'd like to ask You for further explanation maybe You could record a short video of what you ware talking about. It'll be much easier to understand the whole picture...
When I was at the beginning of using Vectorworks, I was advice that this a software for both small and LAs, but now It figures out that if i want to go into LA i have to quit most of the functions that I was using to design small landscapes, gardens and etc.
Would it be possible to have a Landmark webinar for VSS users how to use it a small and LA scale? How the WORKFLOW should look like...?

[Poot]

23 hours ago, TeeMuki said:

I'm running a quite high-end Laptop, but the scale of this project and BIM is taking the best of it 😄
Somehow i feel like Vwx is not utilising my computer as it should. Often the cpu and gpu are running with low usage...
I'm running Vwx 2024 3.1 now, but i think the performance has been worse since a few updates. The project was running better in my opinion with the first 2024 patch. But this is hard to compare, just a feeling...
My computer specs:
Intel i7-13800H (14 cores (6P + 8E), 20 threads, max frequency 5.20 GHz)
32 GB ram 5600 MHz
NVIDIA RTX 3500 12 GB VRAM

Many CAD programs don't benefit as much from multi-core CPU's multithreading capabilities because the sequential/history based nature of our instructions while drawing (do this, then this, then this, etc) which make better use of more powerful single cores, rather than many less powerful ones. 

3D modelling can make use of multiple threads, but our normal drafting is not purely 3D, and heavily sequential.....so even with a super fast GPU and 14core CPU, those wont help as much as fewer cores running at a higher frequency.

 

6 hours ago, ashot said:

Pat please explain how you make VW to use NVIDIA card versus low power built in graphics.

Is this for laptop only, or can be set for desktop Apple Studio for example.

 

For Windows, you access the nvidia control panel in the start menu (just type it in), and set the 3D settings as shown below.  This is solely for 3D functions....so very helpful for rendering and 3D of course.

 

 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Tom W., @Piotr Karczewski - I'm happy for either the marketing team or me to do something on this - the Coffee Break is probably a good place for it, as it gives you a chance to ask more questions.  FYI, @JuanP, @Jake Chambers- perhaps a future subject?

 

Below is an image of a landscape area containing plants, but I've also added a top component representing the plants - the result is similar to a hedgerow. Here, it has a texture with opacity, but you can keep it as a solid colour - if you're exporting to ifc, it can't handle textures anyway, so they'll be lost in translation. Again, solid colour is less weight than texture...

I haven't actually removed the 3D from the plants here, but by not turning them on in 2D/3D I can keep the file much lighter.

When working on larger projects, this is a very effective workflow. Start with concept LAs at different heights, this will give you a good feel of the space.

As I said, this will be easier in the next version. The landscape area is getting a few updates.

 

Don't feel like this is the only workflow - Vectorworks is great because you can adjust it to the way you want to work, as long as you learn a few rules (e.g., just because you don't feel for applying a grade limit to your site model, it doesn't mean you can skip it - the result will be affected). Sometimes, a small tweak can make a big difference - perhaps the planting block approach is not for you - then just be aware of what the 2D/3D does to the file size/graphics card performance, and optimize what you find most important.

 

There are some incredibly exciting things coming soon, so don't despair if you feel like you have to pull back on visualisation compared to data. 

[Tom W.]

36 minutes ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

I'm happy for either the marketing team or me to do something on this - the Coffee Break is probably a good place for it, as it gives you a chance to ask more questions.  FYI, @JuanP, @Jake Chambers- perhaps a future subject?

 

Sign me up for a @Katarina Ollikainen coffee break 🙂

 

I would love to see some examples of what you spoke about more in another thread which was your approach to producing illustrations. So the data-focused approach on one hand + the visualisation-focused approach on the other + how they differ (for you). I think the discussion (in that thread) was about image props + how ineffective they generally are when it comes to representing how the end result (in real life) might look, as well bogging the file down with extra MB.

 

Thank you!