User Origin Marker

[shorter]

We respectfully request that the ubiquitous user origin is made visible in the same way the internal origin is made visible via Display Preferences, perhaps in red, as opposed to blue if for no other reason than to make users aware that they have a user origin.

 

The current yellow indicator where the rulers meet is useful but does not show you where the new coordinate 0,0 is as a consequence of a user origin shift, either deliberate or otherwise.

 

It might make users more aware of the impact of using 'centre on import' when importing DWGs where Vectorworks moves the user origin to a completely arbitrary location.

 

Thank you.

[Jeff Prince]

20 minutes ago, shorter said:

Because it only works in 3D?

 

If you are asking a question...

The user origin/axis can be displayed in both 2D and 3D.  It's an option within Vectorworks preferences.

Easily shows where the user and world origins are.

 

 

 

Quote

Don’t use printer page sizes if you want to fix that. Set up true full bleed page sizes in the printer setup

 

I was referring to fixing problems created by others due to the ambiguity of Vectorworks allowing for users to make such mistakes.

Edited July 11, 2023 by jeff prince

[shorter]

20 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

 

I do not agree here.  Tom illustrated how the user origin is already visible.  What is great about that method is they are graphically unique.  It become very easy visually identify and discuss the differences because of this.  Make them differentiated by color only is just asking for trouble IMHO.  Since the existing method is further enhanced by depicting the 3 primary axis, what's to fix?

 

 

 

This is definitely needed.  Best handled with better documentation and real world examples IMHO.

 

Teaching new users how to navigate these systems shouldn't feel more complicated than actually drawing our projects 🙂

The hours wasted on explaining how Vectorworks georeferences and fixing people's mistakes might be the most costly problem in the program.

That and fixing & shrinking PDF issues.

My feeling is that if you can see both internal and user origins simultaneously in top/plan you might start to comprehend what’s happening and what the relationship is between the two points.

 

it was not until Revit got an internal origin marker that Revit users started talking about it.  It was all project base point this and project base point that but in truth no one knew what they were doing with it and kept on moving it resulting in a total arbitrary coordinate at the internal origin.

[Jeff Prince]

1 minute ago, shorter said:

My feeling is that if you can see both internal and user origins simultaneously in top/plan you might start to comprehend what’s happening and what the relationship is between the two points.

 

And that is why you teach people to turn the feature on...

You can already see them both simultaneously in top/plan.

[shorter]

2 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

 

If you are asking a question...

The user origin/axis can be displayed in both 2D and 3D.  It's an option within Vectorworks preferences.

Easily shows where the user and world origins are.

No. It was an answer as to why I would rather a proper icon rather than something that most people turn off because they find it annoying.

[Jeff Prince]

2 minutes ago, shorter said:

No. It was an answer as to why I would rather a proper icon rather than something that most people turn off because they find it annoying.

 

What make you think people won't find an icon less annoying.  Come on man, get real.

If you don't know the difference between the user and world systems, it's unlikely you will be able to turn their icons off 🙂

 

I'm not seeing how these icons are begging for my attention, even on a blank screen.

 

 

 

[shorter]

I suppose what you suggest @jeff prince just isn’t very clear when compared to the internal origin marker.  It is clearly an issue that the majority are unaware of even when they have a user origin in their file so some clarity would not go amiss.

[shorter]

3 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

 

What make you think people won't find an icon less annoying.  Come on man, get real.

If you don't know the difference between the user and world systems, it's unlikely you will be able to turn their icons off 🙂

 

I'm not seeing how these icons are begging for my attention, even on a blank screen.

 

 

 

Ok. I would wager that More people turn on the internal marker and turn off that 3D grid…

Edited July 11, 2023 by shorter

[Jeff Prince]

Just now, shorter said:

I suppose what you suggest @jeff prince just isn’t very clear when compared to the internal origin marker.  It is clearly an issue that the majority are unaware of even when they have a user origin in their file so some clarity would not go amiss.

 

It's crystal clear for the folks I teach this stuff too.  The people from AutoCAD especially like it because it reminds them of their old UCS cross hairs.

 

Maybe Vectorworks and/or BIM managers just need to turn it on by default for their people.

[shorter]

Time for a beer, methinks 

[Tom W.]

35 minutes ago, shorter said:

Unfortunately not as you stray outside that 5k limit on every project if you only ever set one user origin, don’t you?

 

The 5km limit relates to the Internal Origin not the User Origin.

[shorter]

33 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

The 5km limit relates to the Internal Origin not the User Origin.

Yes. I know. Trying to understand your workflow.

 

you have a template which is georeferenced and used for every project and does not change.

 

you centre your site/geometry on the internal origin

 

i assume this is wrong because that means every project is in the same place in relation to the OS coordinate system.

 

I assume you make it project specific at some point but currently not understanding where.

 

the only coordinate that moves is the UO.

 

centring the geometry on the IO necessitates a corresponding realignment of the UO, no?

Edited July 11, 2023 by shorter

[zoomer]

AFAIK the german localization has something like a User Origin Manager.

Similar to the UCS Panel,

you can save and name a number of User Origin Positions and switch

between these.

 

AFAIK we do not have that (?)

 

 

I personally am VW Origin only.

As long as no yellow in my rulers, I feel good.

[Tom W.]

2 minutes ago, shorter said:

Yes. I know. Trying to understand your workflow.

 

you have a template which is georeferenced and used for every project and does not change.

 

you centre your site/geometry on the internal origin

 

i assume this is wrong because that means every project is in the same place in relation to the OS coordinate system.

 

I assume you make it project specific at some point but currently not understanding where.

 

the only coordinate that moves is the UO.

 

centring the geometry on the IO necessitates a corresponding realignment of the UO, no?

 

I don't centre my site/geometry on the Internal Origin. I have a georeferenced template file where the IO is central to the geographical area I work in. Because of the nature of where I work, all of my projects happen to fall within a 5km radius of the Internal Origin so I don't need to do anything: I can just draw wherever I want based on the real world location of where the project happens to be. But if I had a project outside that 5km boundary I would just re-centre the drawing on the Internal Origin which would in effect move the geometry AND the User Origin together, relative to the location of the Internal Origin. So my geometry would have the same relationship to the User Origin - would still have the correct coordinates - all I'd have done is moved it + the rulers relative to the IO.

 

I believe best practise in BIM - when coordinating with others - is to agree a common Internal Origin point - like you say, a nice round number - as a belts + braces way of ensuring everyone is in the right location - and this can be done as above using the 'Centre Drawing on Internal Origin' command. But otherwise the IO can be wherever you want it as long as your geometry is within 5km of it.

 

 

[Tom W.]

The workflow is covered in this video:

 

https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/page/view.php?id=1349

[shorter]

The major problem with centre on import is that it can result in a different user origin every time you import a DWG.

 

something so critical to successful coordination should not be determined by the software

 

you should never ‘centre on import’ if you need to share data with other disciplines

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, shorter said:

The major problem with centre on import is that it can result in a different user origin every time you import a DWG.

 

something so critical to successful coordination should not be determined by the software

 

you should never ‘centre on import’ if you need to share data with other disciplines

 

Not centre on import: the 'Centre Drawing on Internal Origin' command.

[Christiaan]

7 hours ago, Tom W. said:

The workflow is covered in this video:

 

https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/page/view.php?id=1349

That's where I got my workflow from too.

[bcd]

I think the wording is wrong - or at minimum lacks succinct clarity.

 

            Center the Drawing on Internal Origin, with the added description that "the User Origin is also adjusted to preserve coordinates of all objects in the drawing.

While this is probably what's happening at the coding level at the UI level the internal origin simply jumps to the center of the drawn objects, so perhaps "Center  Internal Origin to Objects would be clearer." This would also allow for Center to selected object ...

 

Practically this command causes the IO marker to jump while everything else stays in place.

Even a VP crop is unchanged so for the user "Center IO to Objects" makes a lot more sense (and the added description becomes unnecessary)

 

[shorter]

2 hours ago, bcd said:

I think the wording is wrong - or at minimum lacks succinct clarity.

 

            Center the Drawing on Internal Origin, with the added description that "the User Origin is also adjusted to preserve coordinates of all objects in the drawing.

While this is probably what's happening at the coding level at the UI level the internal origin simply jumps to the center of the drawn objects, so perhaps "Center  Internal Origin to Objects would be clearer." This would also allow for Center to selected object ...

 

Practically this command causes the IO marker to jump while everything else stays in place.

Even a VP crop is unchanged so for the user "Center IO to Objects" makes a lot more sense (and the added description becomes unnecessary)

 

 

It's odd that we have never needed to use these commands.  Not sure why we haven't but seem to manage delivering fairly large projects without them.

[shorter]

On 7/12/2023 at 3:41 PM, Christiaan said:

That's where I got my workflow from too.

 

good grief... 38 mins on origins?

 

This is a 30 second tutorial max!

[Tom W.]

On 7/13/2023 at 4:07 PM, bcd said:

I think the wording is wrong - or at minimum lacks succinct clarity.

 

            Center the Drawing on Internal Origin, with the added description that "the User Origin is also adjusted to preserve coordinates of all objects in the drawing.

While this is probably what's happening at the coding level at the UI level the internal origin simply jumps to the center of the drawn objects, so perhaps "Center  Internal Origin to Objects would be clearer." This would also allow for Center to selected object ...

 

Practically this command causes the IO marker to jump while everything else stays in place.

Even a VP crop is unchanged so for the user "Center IO to Objects" makes a lot more sense (and the added description becomes unnecessary)

 

 

I agree it's not the easiest to get your head around. The other option for 'moving' the Internal Origin to the location of your choice whilst retaining the user coordinate system is the Geolocate Tool. This way you are just clicking the cursor where you want the IO to be located so requires less mental gymnastics (but you need to reset the user origin to match the georef coordinate system afterwards).

[trotztratz]

We still get user of another software get their Eastings and Northings the wrong way around, which is quite disturbing when it's the surveyor...

[Christiaan]

On 7/11/2023 at 8:33 PM, shorter said:

7 rotation angles used to define rotated views to work orthogonally to the screen (aka ‘project north’) should be accurate to max. 4 decimal places and not rounded.

Why 4 max. Why not 8?

[shorter]

What's the point?

 

1/10000 of a degree equates to 0.0174533mm over 100m.

 

i.e. 0.00001 degrees

 

so rounding to 8 places is not really going to make much difference since a survey itself is ±15mm if you are lucky, plus you are never sure if the angle is displayed to 8 decimal places if it's exact or not.

 

i.e.

 

is 1.23456789 degrees exact or rounded?

 

whereas

 

1.23450000 degrees is more than likely exact and easily checked and written down.  It's easier to get it wrong of it's 3.78154379 degrees than 3.78150000 degrees.

 

We specify 4 decimal places for existing or 2 decimal places exact for new build.

 

Avoids someone entering 8 decimal places and someone entering to 4.

 

It's something we have agreed with most revit consultants other than those that think they are being clever and enter to 12 decimal places.

 

Remove the potential for error first.  Don't be a slave to the software and the 'idea' that more is more.