Display a texture bed over another texture bed

[HLJ]

Hi, this is my first post here. I have an area of texture bed that's within another texture bed; is there any way of making the inner bed clip out the outer bed, or a way to make the inner bed display on top of the outer bed? In the screenshot below, area A should appear on top of area B.

 

This is only an issue because I have a road system that includes circular areas, as in the screenshot below.

 

 

When I created the texture bed for the roads, it filled in all the 'holes' in the roads, meaning I now have to try and put the holes back with a grass texture. Did I do something wrong to have that happen? I'm pretty new to doing site modelling in 3D. Thanks!

terrain-test.vwx

[zoomer]

First, I am not experienced with DTMs and Landscape features.

 

But AFAIR,

I heard of a Workflow idea of texturing the whole DTM top with Asphalt instead,

and using Texture Beds of Grass for the green "Islands" only.

which seems to make sense to me ....

 

On the other hand I wonder why your approach of a Texture Bed (second image)

should not work (?)

 

 

When I had flat Terrains, I did make an Extrude from the Roads, with the top

located 10 cm above the ground.

(But AFAIR also had still some problems with more complex geometries and

Islands like in Parking Lots. I tried solved this by reworking the 2D geometry

in the Extrude. By reconnecting and deleting overlappings and such things.

But it stayed a quite fragile composition anyway ...)

[Jeff Prince]

Vectorworks does not handle complex boundaries such as your road network when applied to a site model as a texture bed.  You could break the roads into a few pieces to help the software out.  Also, if you clip those boundaries that form islands to have a tiny area that escapes to the larger site model, you may find success.

this thread shows how clipping in creative ways can force a site model to do interesting things.  The same logic works for complex texture beds.

 

 

[Tom W.]

13 hours ago, HLJ said:

Hi, this is my first post here. I have an area of texture bed that's within another texture bed; is there any way of making the inner bed clip out the outer bed, or a way to make the inner bed display on top of the outer bed? In the screenshot below, area A should appear on top of area B.

 

This is only an issue because I have a road system that includes circular areas, as in the screenshot below.

 

 

When I created the texture bed for the roads, it filled in all the 'holes' in the roads, meaning I now have to try and put the holes back with a grass texture. Did I do something wrong to have that happen? I'm pretty new to doing site modelling in 3D. Thanks!

terrain-test.vwx 28.62 MB · 0 downloads

 

I haven't checked out your file so I don't know but what type of Texture Bed are your roads i.e. Site Modifier, Hardscape or Landscape Area? I have a texture bed roadway in a recent file with holes in + it worked fine but it was a Hardscape rather than a Site Modifier so I don't know if that makes any difference i.e. is yours a Site Modifier...?

 

 

[HLJ]

On 8/9/2022 at 9:10 PM, jeff prince said:

Vectorworks does not handle complex boundaries such as your road network when applied to a site model as a texture bed.  You could break the roads into a few pieces to help the software out. 

Thanks Jeff, I did just that in the end - split the roads into open sections and then re-applied the texture bed. Perhaps not the best solution, but it was quick and it worked! Thanks!

[Tom W.]

I have realised that where holes in Hardscapes are concerned, what used to work in VW2021 + VW2022 no longer works in VW2023.

 

I have been updating a file I started in VW2021 to VW2023. This is a Hardscape with a hole in it as it looks in VW2021 + VW2022 in Top/Plan + Top view:

 

  

 

And this is what it looks like in VW2023:

 

  

 

The hole gets filled in in 3D.

 

The only way to get the hole to show in 3D is to use the Jeff Prince clipping method but this results in an unwanted line in Top/Plan which is a pain:

 

 

I'm going to file a bug about this. 

 

@Tamsin Slatter @Katarina Ollikainen @Tony Kostreski were you aware of this regression?

Edited January 15, 2023 by Tom W.

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Tom W.,

No I wasn't aware of the issue here with texture beds.

I've tested the hardscape tool where it contains components, and that works even if you have holes in the hardscape. The issues seems to be when only a texture is applied Below is a hardscape with components applied to the site model and this works as expected - I would actually say that it's improved in its capacity to handle complex geometry since earlier versions.

I've also attached an image with the same 'hardscape' made with a landscape area.

I'll have a look at what's happening with the texture bed and file a jira on it - can you tell me if you can see the hardscape if you're looking at the bottom of the site model?

 

However, I can also say that there are some very exciting things coming up for the hardscape soon - keep your eyes open.

 

Regarding the file at the start of the thread, @HLJ, the first thing I see is that you are very far away from the internal origin - you can see the distance in the second screenshot. I know this is a long time ago, and you've probably finished that project already, but it's a good thing to keep in mind🙂.

 

 

 

 

[bob cleaver]

Katarina, thank you for your responses to these forum posts

We are very interested in the hardscape updates as well - will this be an SP update or version 2024 ? 

[Tom W.]

12 hours ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

I'll have a look at what's happening with the texture bed and file a jira on it - can you tell me if you can see the hardscape if you're looking at the bottom of the site model?

 

Thanks Katarina this is what's happening:

 

Before updating site model:

 

 

    

 

 

After updating site model:

 

 

 

I tried all the different ways I could think of plus using Landscape Areas but the only way I could get a texture bed with a hole in it was to clip a tiny slot through as per post above.

 

@Katarina Ollikainenwhilst I've got you could I ask one other thing? I've noticed in this file that the curves on my Hardscapes are horribly facetted in 3D:

 

 

 

This can't be right?! I have Shaded quality + 3D Conversion Resolution both set to Very High. It is the same regardless of the Render Mode. 

 

This is the same model in VW2021 where I first created it + all looks fine:

 

 

I only get faceting when I set OpenGL to Low + even then it's marginal compared to what I'm seeing in VW2023. Is this something you're aware of? Are you experiencing the same?

 

Thanks!

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Tom W.

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Tom W., Ok, so I've done some more testing and I can't see the same problem with hardscape texture beds. Below are screenshots - first of the file in 2022 and then with the two right hand hardscape created in 2022 SP2 and the third (left) created in 2023 SP3 - they all show their texture. 

The difference I see is that the centre of the round hardscape is filled in with texture in 2023, while in 2022 Vectorworks actually divides the texture so it can deal with the interior (see image 3).

I've filed a jira and connected to this thread.

 

Regarding your facetted Landscape areas - have you checked if there is a Simplification tolerance set? If yes, try to adjust it to a smaller number. If this is not the case, please post the file here or send it directly to me, kollikainen@vectorworks.net,  and I'll have a look at it.

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@bob cleaver, I can't promise anything but we hope it will be sooner rather than later 🙂

[Tom W.]

44 minutes ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

Ok, so I've done some more testing and I can't see the same problem with hardscape texture beds. Below are screenshots - first of the file in 2022 and then with the two right hand hardscape created in 2022 SP2 and the third (left) created in 2023 SP3 - they all show their texture. 

 

I'm not having a problem with the texture showing. The problem is only that the hole is getting filled in. Thanks for filing it as a bug.

 

Well actually there's another issue which is the 3D Hardscape remaining in place at Z=0 underneath the site model. In this example:

 

 

are you seeing the 3D Hardscape underneath the site model as per my earlier screenshot?

 

43 minutes ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

Regarding your facetted Landscape areas - have you checked if there is a Simplification tolerance set? If yes, try to adjust it to a smaller number. If this is not the case, please post the file here or send it directly to me, kollikainen@vectorworks.net,  and I'll have a look at it.

 

They are Hardscapes not Landscape Areas so the Simplification Tolerance setting isn't applicable. I will put a file together + get it over to you. Thanks for your help.

 

 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Tom W., yes the fill I see as well, and it is reported. 

 

The hardscape also has an automated simplification tolerance applied - check and see if this is what makes the areas so facetted. If the curves are tight, this might be the problem.

 

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

The hardscape also has an automated simplification tolerance applied

 

Yes it does I completely missed it thank you! 🤦‍♂️Noticed it on Landscape Areas but not Hardscapes. That is just what I needed + now the Hardscapes are looking exactly as they should. Thank you very much for pointing this out!

 

My Hardscapes all seem to be set to 25.4 which as you've seen results in a really bad level of segmentation. But there doesn't seem to be any way of controlling this setting globally or by style. So basically each time I create a Hardscape with curves I have to manually reset its Simplification Tolerance in the OIP each time? 

 

A related question: in VW2022 you could set whether a Hardscape was an Aligned, Texture Bed or Pad type modifier by style. Now in VW2023 you can only set it to use a site modifier or not use a site modifier. If you choose the former, you specify the site modifier configuration in the OIP on an object-by-object basis. So a site modifier-enabled Hardscape style will be Planar Pad configuration by default + if you want it to be Aligned, Path or Texture Bed you have to manually set it to this each time? Is there a reason why this can't be set at style level as previously?
 

Thanks.

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@Tom W.We're in a transitional time for the Hardscape.You'll soon see some big improvements in the functions, and the Dialogs and the OIP will also be updated later on.

Please bear with us for a while - it will all be streamlined soon, but we need to take it one step at the time, and we deemed it more important to get the new functions out than going in and change too much in the Dialogs.

 

[Tom W.]

1 minute ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

@Tom W.We're in a transitional time for the Hardscape.You'll soon see some big improvements in the functions, and the Dialogs and the OIP will also be updated later on.

Please bear with us for a while - it will all be streamlined soon, but we need to take it one step at the time, and we deemed it more important to get the new functions out than going in and change too much in the Dialogs.

 

 

Sounds good. Keep up the good work. Thank you for all the info. Very helpful.

[Jeff Prince]

46 minutes ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

@Tom W.We're in a transitional time for the Hardscape.You'll soon see some big improvements in the functions, and the Dialogs and the OIP will also be updated later on.

Please bear with us for a while - it will all be streamlined soon, but we need to take it one step at the time, and we deemed it more important to get the new functions out than going in and change too much in the Dialogs.

 

Hey @Katarina Ollikainen

Do you have any recommended best practices for making hardscape styles today  that will survive these planned enhancements to the tool of tomorrow?  Reason I ask… when the plant tool was “improved” it required fixing all of the plant styles individually by editing to the by style/ by instance settings.  It would be nice to avoid similar efforts with hardscapes and LA areas.

[Katarina Ollikainen]

@jeff prince, I fully agree, it's not fun when something you've put in a lot of effort into suddenly has to be adjusted.

These changes won't break your existing hardscape styles, it will only add features, but the style setup itself is not touched at all right now. This is also one of the reasons we divide the improvements - we have a better handle on the transition, and can focus on one part of it at the time.

[Jeff Prince]

47 minutes ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

@jeff prince, I fully agree, it's not fun when something you've put in a lot of effort into suddenly has to be adjusted.

These changes won't break your existing hardscape styles, it will only add features, but the style setup itself is not touched at all right now. This is also one of the reasons we divide the improvements - we have a better handle on the transition, and can focus on one part of it at the time.

Very happy to hear!  Thank you for your efforts.