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Better Projector Tool Roundup


trashcan

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Guest Frank Brault

Hi trashcan,

I don't have a solution here, but I wanted to offer that it may be useful, for those who have not yet tried 3rd party products that address this, to try creating a gobo with the desired projector image and use it in a Spotlight Lighting Device object. As you mention, Andy and Josh already provide methods that address preliminary planning issues, like working out projector location and beam obstruction issues, starting to visualize the play of images on surfaces since there is an actual (virtual) beam of light and maybe start to estimate lens possibilities.

 

Lumen studies are not directly supported in our system currently, but could be engineered as a calculation value for comparison purposes. Our Photometric Grid object could possibly be upgraded with the necessary new capabilities. Adapting Spotlight Numbering to the particular needs of projectors seems actionable. If or when we implement any projector improvements though, there are naturally serious limitations to the visualization piece that we are going to run up against due to our environment; Perhaps the best approach is our plan to offer export of the model via MVR that the various dedicated visualizers could support.

 

As you suggested, Vision might be a more appropriate vehicle for us to add this capability, although from where I sit, it seems like we have plenty of work to do before we might apply some more serious effort to this; Remember: I'm sitting in my house right now, of course, so no commitments...

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@Frank Brault thanks for the info and I appreciate the response. That work-around to project on to any surface is great (and I suspect how Josh's tool works), but given that (I suspect) it's been a known work around for years - wouldn't it be great to integrate that as a feature? 

 

The sticking point here is that with Projection Design, (at least) beam previz is essential to the engineering process. That piece, as you say, is way more doable. Josh and Landru get you about half of the way there already. And there are workarounds to achieve a lot of the other stuff. It's just about integrating them into functional tools IMHO. 

 

Having done projection engineering drawings by hand for many years, the workflow correlates nicely in VW, but the lack of complex projection tools leaves me still doing a ton of things essentially by hand. Don't get me wrong, it is MUCH easier using VW - but I'm struck by how much is still done by hand given the strengths of many of the other toolsets. 

 

Meaning, if a projector needs to go in the corner of a room: 

  • Will it clip anything? 
  • What surfaces will I hit? 
  • If I put it on the ceiling will it cover the whole target wall or does it need to be above or below the ceiling? 
  • Does it get the coverage I need? 
  • Is it the right aspect and resolution? 
  • What are the sight lines from patrons / audience / event-goers? 
  • Can it calculate an image size based on throw distance?
  • Can it calculate the lumens based on target surface-to-throw-distance + projector lumens? 

I don't expect to plug-in all the data to a better projection tool and VW will say "You're Good" - I just want more in the toolkit to figure it out myself. 

 

Right now, I'm having to use a tool like Projector Central's projector calculator or a manufacturer's calculator before I bring anything in to VW. If I know the throw ratio, the lumens, and shift limits then I can manually draw beam lines and do a lux calc. 

 

Like all things, I recognize that you need to know the engineering piece of the puzzle before you jump in, otherwise it's garbage-in, garbage-out. 

 

Re: Exporting a model, I think we're already good with that, yeah? As long as it can come out as an OBJ or DXF we're good for many applications. 

 

Re: Seeing (moving) video piped through those projectors would be great, but the more immediate need is being able to engineer projectors with confidence, and less manually. I totally recognize the video portion as a much more complex process and agree would probably be better for Vision - but the engineering bit needs to happen first. 

Edited by trashcan
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Hi,

 

Bump to an old post because I'm currently playing with projectors in 2021 and the tool clearly isn't there yet.

 

My main ask: side hangable projectors.  I need my calcs to be for 10:16, not 16:10! I can't see how to do this, and it's a thing we do a lot.

 

Thanks!

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On 4/22/2020 at 5:49 PM, trashcan said:
  1. The big one for me is the ability to focus on surfaces, not limited to screens. Many projection and video designs don't use screens. Right now the tool caters to trade show executions / simple design. Currently, the work around is that you can project on to any surface with Josh's excellent Projection Viz tool - but the focus point has to be behind the object which is great for previz but not accurate for engineering purposes (you can double up and achieve this with class visibility). 
  2. Obstructions. If something is in front of a projector, shouldn't the image be clipped? 
  3. Projector beams. Because: Fog etc. And projection surfaces emitting light!
  4. Projector focus points! This would be amazing. Just like the lighting focus points, it would angle the projector to match the target focus point. 
  5. Accurate projection shift (set limits based on projector + projector lens combination). 
  6. Projectors at odd angles to fit in the nook and crannies that are in real world situations. 
  7. Projectors on other types of hang points. Right now you can hack this to make it happen (just using a projector symbol and not the plugin object). But: attaching a projector to a truss or a ceiling? The plug in should be able to handle that. 
  8. Lumens studies
  9. 2D and 3D class options for beam, projector, projected image.
  10. True representations of pixel math, aspect, and resolution. 
  11. Simpler portrait mode (or any other angle other than straight on)

 

I know this is an old post, but I'm compiling wishlist items for ProjectionViz https://benghiatlighting.com/software/products/pv-1

Thanks for the nod @trashcan — just one clarification — #1 is already possible. Just tell the object not to draw the screen surface. That lets you place the focus coordinate directly onto the object receiving the projection. In fact, I specifically designed the tool to help with projections that don't fall onto screens.

Most of the above list is already possible, including rotating the projector to any angle (and still correctly computing lens shift limits). The latest version even re-orients the 3D component of a projector symbol.

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On 10/15/2020 at 6:12 PM, A.D.K. said:

My main ask: side hangable projectors.  I need my calcs to be for 10:16, not 16:10! I can't see how to do this, and it's a thing we do a lot.

 

Sorry; just seeing this thread...

 

If the projector Symbol name includes the text "-Side" the tools know that that projector has a portrait orientation.  The projector aspect parameter is then enabled, allowing you to spec. that.

 

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On 5/20/2021 at 2:57 PM, JBenghiat said:

 

I know this is an old post, but I'm compiling wishlist items for ProjectionViz https://benghiatlighting.com/software/products/pv-1

Thanks for the nod @trashcan — just one clarification — #1 is already possible. Just tell the object not to draw the screen surface. That lets you place the focus coordinate directly onto the object receiving the projection. In fact, I specifically designed the tool to help with projections that don't fall onto screens.

Most of the above list is already possible, including rotating the projector to any angle (and still correctly computing lens shift limits). The latest version even re-orients the 3D component of a projector symbol.

 

I tried installing a trial with v2022 but it doesn't work (no issues with installing on v2021). Any idea when it will be compatible with v2022?

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3 hours ago, JBenghiat said:

@Mark Aceto SP1 at the earliest 

 

Oof--in that case I have no notes. It's perfect as-is!

 

Off the top of my head, all of these notes are coming from using the plugin and RTFM for less than 24 hours:

  • Moving objects is a drag, specifically an Option-drag. And then I have to delete the leftovers. Unless there's a modifier key to move locked objects, I'd like a way to move them or unlock them without having to duplicate them. Unless I'm missing something... 
  • When I insert a PJ symbol, it aligns with the insertion point, not the center of the lens, so I have to edit the 3D symbol insertion point to align with the cone. Unless I'm missing something... 
  • I'd like to tilt a PJ past -90 for mirror / snorkel lenses. For example, if I hang a PJ at -90 and then enter -110, the PJ will rotate 180º to -70.
    • Obviously, I can adjust the focus with vertical lens shift but then the body of the PJ is the cone (see screenshot; however, props for the realism of the PJ body casting a shadow in its own cone). Unless I'm missing something... 
  • Is there a way for the image texture not to appear on other PJ cones (see screenshot)?
  • For the built-in text functionality, I'd say Andy's and Sam's (legacy hoist tool) are the gold standard, so more like that and less like a data tag.
  • My last note is for VW to increase the light limit in OpenGL/Shaded because now my PJ's are counting against that number too, so I'll throw a VE down the wishing well.. 

I'm still mid-learning curve, so I'm eager to discover what else I can accomplish with this plugin. In the meantime, there are so many little attentions to detail that I love like the View section button, and the sliders that allow me to make adjustments in real time.

 

718990340_ScreenShot2021-09-28at8_34_31AM.thumb.png.34ecc90d79425a7f6762dad3c25e2054.png

 

1432456191_ScreenShot2021-09-28at8_42_12AM.thumb.png.850d47f18026b07e3cbd3f43121defff.png

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1 hour ago, Mark Aceto said:

Moving objects is a drag, specifically an Option-drag. And then I have to delete the leftovers. Unless there's a modifier key to move locked objects, I'd like a way to move them or unlock them without having to duplicate them. Unless I'm missing something... 

Yes, there’s a manual section on this. Adjust the interaction locks to control how drags and move commands function. Locking the length of heights, and then either the location of projector or focus, will only move the unlocked location. For example, if the projector location is locked, a move of x=3 would move your image 3’ to the right. Locking throw or plan distance will move both the image and the projector. Dragging a control point in 2D or 3D will move just that point, regardless of locks. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Mark Aceto said:

When I insert a PJ symbol, it aligns with the insertion point, not the center of the lens, so I have to edit the 3D symbol insertion point to align with the cone. Unless I'm missing something... 

You can use the Lens to hanging point option to enter the z distance from the lens center to the insertion point. You will have to adjust the symbol for L/R. Note Vectorworks does not include a way to universally indicate the lens center in a projector symbol

1 hour ago, Mark Aceto said:

I'd like to tilt a PJ past -90 for mirror / snorkel lenses. For example, if I hang a PJ at -90 and then enter -110, the PJ will rotate 180º to -70.

That’s not currently possible. I’d have to look at the math involved, and basically it would turn the image upside down. The workaround would be to duplicate your symbol so the snorkel faces up. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Mark Aceto said:

Is there a way for the image texture not to appear on other PJ cones (see screenshot)?

Edit the projector beam texture and uncheck Receive shadows. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Mark Aceto said:

For the built-in text functionality, I'd say Andy's and Sam's (legacy hoist tool) are the gold standard, so more like that and less like a data tag.

I guess it’s somewhere in the middle. You have to add the text you want to the label, but you don’t have to deal with any layout. It would actually be way too complicated to allow simple text box toggles as well as custom prefix, suffix, and label order. A single text box for all of this is actually much simpler. 
 

 

1 hour ago, Mark Aceto said:

My last note is for VW to increase the light limit in OpenGL/Shaded because now my PJ's are counting against that number too, so I'll throw a VE down the wishing well.. 

This is a limit of OpenGL itself. Now that GL is becoming deprecated, there’s a chance this could improve in the future. 

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1 hour ago, JBenghiat said:

Locking throw or plan distance will move both the image and the projector.

 

Thank you!

 

1 hour ago, JBenghiat said:

You can use the Lens to hanging point option to enter the z distance from the lens center to the insertion point.

 

Got it--thanks!

 

1 hour ago, JBenghiat said:

The workaround would be to duplicate your symbol so the snorkel faces up. 

 

That works.

 

1 hour ago, JBenghiat said:

Edit the projector beam texture and uncheck Receive shadows.

 

Hmm... I definitely want it to receive shadows from other objects. Is this because the image textures seem to be sort of like gobo textures?

 

1 hour ago, JBenghiat said:

I guess it’s somewhere in the middle. You have to add the text you want to the label, but you don’t have to deal with any layout. It would actually be way too complicated to allow simple text box toggles as well as custom prefix, suffix, and label order. A single text box for all of this is actually much simpler. 

 

Personally, I'll be using Data Tags, so I don't have a horse in this race. However, from a basic end-user POV, this area was the most frustrating for me. It was definitely interesting, so I'm curious to see how it develops.

 

1 hour ago, JBenghiat said:

This is a limit of OpenGL itself. Now that GL is becoming deprecated, there’s a chance this could improve in the future. 

 

🙏🏼 the same self-imposed limit to Shaded (Metal / DirectX) is increased.

 

Final thought: a tutorial video would be great for new users. Some of the parameters and functionality is not immediately obvious or intuitive, so a video would really speed up the learning curve. Also possibly a little more explanation throughout the OIP (either more descriptive labels or some tooltips or something). I really love this plugin, and can't wait to continue using it in v2022.

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11 minutes ago, Mark Aceto said:
1 hour ago, JBenghiat said:

Edit the projector beam texture and uncheck Receive shadows.

 

Hmm... I definitely want it to receive shadows from other objects. Is this because the image textures seem to be sort of like gobo textures?

The projection cone is a 3D object and separate from the projected image. Now that i'm back at my computer, the texture for the cone is already set not to receive shadows. You'll only see this on RW, though. You can always turn off the projection cone in Display options, or in Rendering options toggle Only show image plane. This is, of course, in addition to the option of applying a class to the projector cone and controlling that way.

 

 

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On 9/28/2021 at 10:30 AM, JBenghiat said:

Yes, there’s a manual section on this. Adjust the interaction locks to control how drags and move commands function. Locking the length of heights, and then either the location of projector or focus, will only move the unlocked location. For example, if the projector location is locked, a move of x=3 would move your image 3’ to the right. Locking throw or plan distance will move both the image and the projector. Dragging a control point in 2D or 3D will move just that point, regardless of locks. 

 

How do I mirror 4 of these around a central focus point?

 

956653503_ScreenShot2021-10-25at7_28_33PM.thumb.png.c7279a930de687701e5ac87a31f2a45a.png

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@Mark Aceto Specifically for ProjectionViz, in Settings, accessible at the bottom of Object Info, you can choose how the object behaves when duplicated. You can maintain the location of the projector, focus, or neither. 

 

I'm seeing a bug when mirroring the projector, where the two lock modes do not work as expected. If you select Neither, however, you can simply use the mirror tool (or duplicate array).

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4 hours ago, JBenghiat said:

@Mark Aceto Specifically for ProjectionViz, in Settings, accessible at the bottom of Object Info, you can choose how the object behaves when duplicated. You can maintain the location of the projector, focus, or neither. 

 

I'm seeing a bug when mirroring the projector, where the two lock modes do not work as expected. If you select Neither, however, you can simply use the mirror tool (or duplicate array).

 

Thanks! I totally forgot about that setting, so I set it to Neither for all new documents... 

 

... or so I thought.

 

It unchecked the box for "Make default... " after clicking OK (and then reopening that Setting dialog).

 

2146825184_ScreenShot2021-10-26at10_32_54PM.png.c7cdc1eb8fba620de29913b83e512d25.png

Edited by Mark Aceto
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(just wanted to say I've been out of the loop on this thread because of a variety of things, mainly that I've been drawing this stuff manually and it works for me for now though I really really want to take the time to learn both of the tools in great detail. I love that this thread is still going and there are so many contributors!)

 

Also @Frank Brault did any of these features make it into VWX 2022??

Edited by trashcan
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Here again hi guys! 

 

Now that I'm finally getting into ProjectionViz just wanted to mention how great it would be to pipe in Syphon / Spout into Vectorworks. That way, you could test your maps, build out in advance, etc. The PV tool is incredible. But this is a much needed thing that would make VWX the projection engineering tool. 

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1 hour ago, trashcan said:

how great it would be to pipe in Syphon / Spout into Vectorworks

 

I upvoted the original post because I can't upvote this. I'll file it as a VE though.

 

In the meantime, here's some info about Syphon (for Mac) including compatible apps, and the developer SDK:

 

http://syphon.v002.info

 

I would have killed for this on my last gig (and my next).

 

Edited by Mark Aceto
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@Mark Aceto this should probably be a sidebar, but there is a nice previz workflow that I've used many times using a combination of Vectorworks and a tool called Immersive Designer Pro (or IDP). It's extremely convoluted - and it's a long process - and you need a PC, but it works (and the software support is kinda meh). It's just not great for roundtripping projectors back and forth so it's not a good engineering tool, but it is a fantastic real-time previz tool. It also supports SPOUT, which is the windows version of SYPHON. So you can pipe mad mapper right in there. We engineered 8 projectors mapped to a crazy set of surfaces using this and it basically worked. 

 

In a nutshell it is: create your 3D world in VWX and make sure you have a consistent UNIT CUBE for everything. Export all your different visibilities with the same UNIT CUBE (I used 100'). For example, you'd export just the floor as an OBJ (w/ unit cube references), then all the walls as another OBJ (ditto on the cube), then the grid as another OBJ (ditto), etc, etc, etc. Then you import all of those OBJS as operate layers and make sure they're scaled properly in IDP. The unit cube that's consistent on all layers is what keeps the relationship between everything and the scale the same. Then you (re)build your projectors in IDP, place them properly, link them up to unique stream of SPOUT and you're good to go. If you want to roundtrip those rebuilt projectors back to VWX, you turn on just your IDP projectors and just the UNIT CUBE obj (solo) and export as a DXF. The projectors come through to VWX as nasty boxes that you have to then rebuild and angle properly and all that other nonsense. 

 

Point being it's a ton of work and very time consuming to do this for complicated builds and having it all in one place (I.e., Vectorworks) would be incredible! 

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@JBenghiat I'm kicking the tires on the new PV that's compatible with VW 2022 so, first of all, thank you! I can't wait to use this on my next project along with ConnectCAD 2022.

 

Notes

  • Keystone sliders vs fields would be wonderful
    • Being able to visually rough in adjustments in real time is next-level for a design tool in VW
    • I want sliders in the OIP for so many other PIO's now... 
  • The "Rotation" slider is a little confusing because it's actually more of a "Roll" (around the lens) which would be consistent with "truss roll" in VW (vs plan Rotation at the top of the OIP)
  • Are there any new features, improvements or fixes in PV 105 or does this update simply bring compatibility with VW 2022?

Screen Shot 2021-11-22 at 6.51.29 PM.png

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On 11/22/2021 at 6:59 PM, Mark Aceto said:
  • Are there any new features, improvements or fixes in PV 105 or does this update simply bring compatibility with VW 2022?

 

Found the release notes:

 

https://benghiatlighting.com/software/support/view-release-notes/projectionviz/

 

Looking forward to:

 

PV-116 - For projector symbols with 2D objects in 3D planes, the planar objects aren't transforming

 

That sounds to me like rotating a PJ will redraw an autohybrid PJ symbol which had been confusing the heck out of a few of us when rotating (rolling) PJ's in Plan view because the image/screen would redraw but the PJ itself would not. It wasn't until I changed to a 3D view that I discovered what was happening.

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Just a quick add here. NDI might be a better option above Spout/Syphon because it's universal between Mac/PC. I've tested NDI on a Mac running Parallels where I'm using MadMapper on the Mac end and using NDI to send video streams to a program on the Windows side. Worked great. Obviously, you can use NDI to send video over a network so hypothetically, if VWX/Josh/Landru integrates video stream(s) into their tools, you could Vectorworks on one machine and use a separate server for video if the needs is there. 

Edited by trashcan
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On 11/26/2021 at 4:39 PM, Mark Aceto said:

Looking forward to:

 

PV-116 - For projector symbols with 2D objects in 3D planes, the planar objects aren't transforming

 

That sounds to me like rotating a PJ will redraw an autohybrid PJ symbol which had been confusing the heck out of a few of us when rotating (rolling) PJ's in Plan view because the image/screen would redraw but the PJ itself would not. It wasn't until I changed to a 3D view that I discovered what was happening.

 

No, this is really just a bug fix that addresses some parts of the 3D projector symbol that aren't transforming correctly.

 

The current mimics what happens in Spotlight with Lighting Devices: adding a 3D transformation to the projector breaks the relationship to the 2D component, so it just becomes a symbol indicating where the projector installs in plan view. Certainly generating a Top/Plan view from the rotated 3D is something I can add to the wish list. I would likely include an option, so that the user can choose between a pre-defined 2D view of the symbol or rendering the 2D from the manipulated 3D.

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