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nca777

Abandoning VW Again...Software needs fundamental changes!

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So, after working with Landmark on several real-world projects for approx 5-6 months and becoming relatively proficient I can confidently assert that the software is woefully unsuitable for a modern landscape architecture workflow!

 

I would strongly suggest, if any admins, managers, or developers are reading this that you seek out Licensed Landscape Architects and have them test the software.  I run a technologically-savvy, progressive design studio  with projects ranging from small, private gardens with highly complex and constrained sites to urban master plans encompassing several dozen city blocks. We follow a professional-standard workflow and best practices. We expect the software (whichever software) to accommodate this workflow, not the other way around. Professionals should not have to adapt their process to software!

 

Here is an abbreviated list of my gripes:

 

2D drafting:
-Innaccurate, clunky, snaps and quick keys are not intuitive!

-Drafting tools do not easily accommodate standard drafting practices, ie tangent radii, offsets from center line, etc.

-Drafting in sketchup is easier, more intuitive and more reliable

-need real-world, intuitive quick keys that make ergonomic sense for fast drafting.

-consider adding scale reference, rotate reference commands. The move tool is clunky and undependable!

-consider adding command line with prompts!

-drafting or modeling roas is virtually impossible with any degree of accuracy

-parking tools are a joke, the way the tool works, like the road tool is at odds with how a road or parking lot are actually laid out.

-Grading should just simply include vertices for user to mannually manipulate proposed contours--professionals dont need automated tools to grade a site! The site modifiers are just a HUGE HUGE Time Suck!

 

I could go on...

 

In general, I want the community here and public to know as well as the managers that VW has cost us an immense amount of unnecessary time and expense over the last few months. Virtually everything we've created in VW has needed to be exported to DWG or some other file format and often redrafted or remodeled completely in order to share with consultants and make accurate documentation!

 

The software development is clearly way, way out of touch with professional needs and needs to go back to the fundamentals or continue to lose market share.

 

The Silver lining--

 

Pretty much the only thing I see VW has going is the fact that it is the only software that actually recognizes the demand for a BIM solution in landscape Architecture. The site modeling tools and general concepts are headed in the right direction. 

 

Other than that--Landmark will be basically taking up space on our hard drives for the time being.

 

Nick

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i use to view landscaping as more of a type of frosting on a cake...

 

however,  i have come to realize that there is a whole other universe once a person steps out of a building.

 

this "universe" connects the buildings entrances with the public road infrastructure & nothing is straight.

 

also, water management is a big deal. if you think designing a roof is important, it pails compared to designing water flow of the land around the building.

 

hence, the tools need to accommodate this flowing non-orthogal universe.

 

currently, i am using 3d polys since the real world seldom works with a parametric paradigm 

 

as for "consider adding command line with prompts!" absolutely not.

 

here are some images that show:

1. existing slabs are not parametric friendly (actual surface made from surveyors elevations)

2. the dtm need to be shaped in a continuous flowing (think water, water ,water) fashion

3. using little "pad" segments to achieve this

4. my wish for ultimate surface control (maybe the slope tool but in a type of 3d continuous mesh surface)595f5c4e5826e_ExistPadFromSurveyors.png.89ff540a58c9758bee4c84c4942dc9fa.png595f5c552a2a0_SwaleNeeded.png.386ec70c296f8e5c0952984eb9c3af29.png595f5c5874dbc_PadsforSwale.png.2b91c62cbc0e1ab1d549ce504b451376.pngSan-Jose-skatepark.jpg.d1fd394544ca43b259e1f1d3c32fee5e.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

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nca777,  I'm getting the feeling that the tools that are supplied with VW i.e. road & parking lot etc are the problem.

 

this is what i have found out about these tools.. they are for general concept layout...but i would never build from them

 

over the years i have tended to look for a "tool" to make some 3d item & have always ended up frustrated.  

 

i dont do that anymore (except for the DTM which i still use) 

 

for the images above it boils down to me using 3d polys and 3d loci which i move xyz according to the needed slope (like +2% east & -1% north) then i snap my 3d poly corner to it

then i take that 3d poly that may be concrete, copy it then move to a modify layer and convert to pad (after i drop it in z by about 0.1m to avoid same plane flicker)

tedious but it works & you get the hang of it after a few 

Edited by digitalcarbon
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I wish there was a better swale tool that you could use with polylines.  Haven't really worked with the contour tool. As mentioned, still grade with 2D polys, convert, etc.  Also, need a drainage tool more than irrigation, at least for my work.

 

No doubt the free form grading could use some advancement to think more like a landscape architect. 

 

Push pull like sketch up would be neat for minor adjustments.  I think the road tool is fine, but only use it for paths which aren't as critical. If they do a true road tool, I would keep it for simpler layouts and rename it just that....the path tool.  

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I'm getting the sense a large portion of the current user base is more 'design-build' oriented rather than 'design-document.' 

 

I'm finding it absolutely impossible to precisely document a detailed site design, with the typical document set (layout, materials plans, detailed grading plans with spot elevations, demolition, planting, details, etc..) 

 

As far as the command line--look at rhino. You can FLY through some pretty complex modeling with a command string, similar to autocad. Its just way faster than moving your mouse to click buttons on screen. I can draft a parking lt in a fraction of the time in autocad vs vw. Turning that same parking to 3D is easier and faster in sketchup than vw in my experience and getting said parking lot to sit on the topography in a reasonably realistic way is virtually impossible in vw.

 

The program needs to tons of input from LA's.

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30 minutes ago, nca777 said:

I'm getting the sense a large portion of the current user base is more 'design-build' oriented rather than 'design-document.' 

Although I definitely understand your frustration, I can attest that we are a landscape architecture firm performing large-scale development and public works projects and we have been using Vectorworks for some time now to great affect in design documentation (http://www.vectorworks.net/case-studies?id=180). I still find VW better than the alternative and use the many of the imperfect tools you mention, to varying degrees (often just for concept development). There are definitely lots of areas for improvement and I find myself constantly chiming in, trying to make things better. 

 

You can view some of the work we do with the software on our website (www.pc-ld.com). I can provide more specific examples if you request. 

 

I do agree that the BIM direction is the best thing VW has going for it, but I hope it could find a way to get there a little faster for Landscape Architects, especially in regards to complex document management.

 

31 minutes ago, nca777 said:

The program needs to tons of input from LA's.

It seems that VW has made some strides to better this effort internally. They have hired a couple of landscape architects with lots of previous large-scale expertise to try and guide some of the development in Landmark, which is a bonus.

 

If you are ever interested in some of the more specific workflows we utilize or have specific questions, I'd be happy to chime in.

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5 minutes ago, ericjhberg said:

Although I definitely understand your frustration, I can attest that we are a landscape architecture firm performing large-scale development and public works projects and we have been using Vectorworks for some time now to great affect in design documentation (http://www.vectorworks.net/case-studies?id=180). I still find VW better than the alternative and use the many of the imperfect tools you mention, to varying degrees (often just for concept development). There are definitely lots of areas for improvement and I find myself constantly chiming in, trying to make things better. 

 

You can view some of the work we do with the software on our website (www.pc-ld.com). I can provide more specific examples if you request. 

 

I do agree that the BIM direction is the best thing VW has going for it, but I hope it could find a way to get there a little faster for Landscape Architects, especially in regards to complex document management.

 

It seems that VW has made some strides to better this effort internally. They have hired a couple of landscape architects with lots of previous large-scale expertise to try and guide some of the development in Landmark, which is a bonus.

 

If you are ever interested in some of the more specific workflows we utilize or have specific questions, I'd be happy to chime in.

 

Thanks Eric--

 

From what I can tell a lot of the LA's using VW are modeling only up through concept/sd level, then choosing to document everything in 2D, basically using VW like autocad. I can see your grading plans look pretty clean, making me think you might be discarding any of the 'automated' site model grading and tracing in proposed contours in 2D after the fact.

 

It just seems like heaps of extra work to ultimately get to the same place as one would with CAD, unless you're modeling everything to a level that can be utilized in graphics and shared with other consultants for coordination--which I have found to be lacking.

 

One particular question I have is how you might be drafting accurate curvilinear roads, parking, and pathways?  The VW drafting tools do not seem very conducive to the typical "centerline-offset' standard drafting method...

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10 minutes ago, nca777 said:

It just seems like heaps of extra work to ultimately get to the same place as one would with CAD, unless you're modeling everything to a level that can be utilized in graphics and shared with other consultants for coordination--which I have found to be lacking.

We have used the Site Model tools and site modifiers/3d polys to a fairly decent extent for coordination. I will admit that here in CA we rely heavily on civil engineers for the final grading documents. That being said, we have found ways of interchanging 3d data with civil engineers to effectively communicate our design intent. If we were drafting our own grading plans and trying to use the site models to draft contours, I think I would be right there with you regarding it's ultimate usefulness. The interpolation it uses seems to always miss the intent and you could spend hours trying to add additional data to smooth it out or get it "close enough".

 

13 minutes ago, nca777 said:

One particular question I have is how you might be drafting accurate curvilinear roads, parking, and pathways?  The VW drafting tools do not seem very conducive to the typical "centerline-offset' standard drafting method...

Stay away from the Road Tools is my advice...they're terrible for almost everything to do with roadway design (I have found the NURBS roadway tool useful for vertical grading applications though). Vectorworks has much the same basic drafting capabilities as any CAD software, just organized a little differently, so we draft everything in 2d, "the old fashioned way" with centerlines and offsets, fillets, chamfers, etc and then creating 3d objects from those (i.e. hardscapes, floors, extrudes, etc.). You are correct, the tangent snapping is terrible. We try to keep everything "hybrid" in nature so that it works both in 2d documentation and in 3d documentation as well. Short of a full working knowledge of Civil 3D or MicroStation, I am unsure if any software gets there for roadways...and if you're using either of those, good luck getting anything for plants, irrigation, scheduling, etc.

 

We have found that it's a give and take. There is almost always a way to do something. Whether it is as easy or straightforward as Vectorworks may market or intend is a complete different story. We have found ways to use tools unconventionally to achieve different workaround results, and by doing so, feel very comfortable with our current state of affairs.

 

I think VW has tremendous potential if it is able to counter many of your arguments directly and start working for Landscape Architects and true-BIM. There really isn't another program doing it for our profession, but I see Revit heading in that direction, getting better all the time. With that said, I would hate to see Autodesk also dominate the future market with their industry whitewashing that has frankly ignored Landscape Architecture to date, so I am pulling for VW.

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1 hour ago, ericjhberg said:

I think VW has tremendous potential if it is able to counter many of your arguments directly and start working for Landscape Architects and true-BIM. There really isn't another program doing it for our profession, but I see Revit heading in that direction, getting better all the time. With that said, I would hate to see Autodesk also dominate the future market with their industry whitewashing that has frankly ignored Landscape Architecture to date, so I am pulling for VW.

 This^^

Feel exactly the same way. But is anyone here listening?? I'm just waiting for Revit or Archicad to come out with a plugin that does everything and more, any day now...come on vectorworks!

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The pecking order on project DATA format selection  is Engineers,Consultants, Architects & Last LA 

Engineers are pressuring Stakeholders into using Revit as for Archicad it's not even considered robust enough and they are so far behind.

VWs with parasolid is my preferred choice but it's a losing battle..goodluck

 

Edited by BCE

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13 hours ago, BCE said:

The pecking order on project DATA format selection  is Engineers,Consultants, Architects & Last LA 

Engineers are pressuring Stakeholders into using Revit as for Archicad it's not even considered robust enough and they are so far behind.

VWs with parasolid is my preferred choice but it's a losing battle..goodluck

 

 

I'm not sure what this means. We work with architects using archicad and they model our site plans faster than us in vectorworks. Seems their grading tools are fairly primitive, but still...there are la's using revit. Its tempting to just jump on the bandwagon and at work in the same program for collaboration and file exchange. Seems standard file exchange format was pretty much decided on a while ago, either ifc or dwg...

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File format or more precisely Data Accuracy & Compliance is being decide right now AFAIK it's not IFC?

The data is either compliant or noncompliant with the standards & code, the latter is certified by engineers who prefer a more robust modelling kernel.

 

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I use VW (I use 2008 and see no reason to upgrade) in 2D mode only after trying to do an open-cast staged quarry some years ago and finding VW poor on large complex cut and fill operations - and such work is key to my career so my CAD must handle it. I've also found when sites get large (>1km across) that VW's accuracy falls off compared with other products (BricsCAD, Sketchup).

 

It is a problem with CAD generally that so few CADS are designed with LA's in mind. For me VW's strengths are: internal spreadsheet tool (I do a lot of large planting plans), straight-forward print/output tools and nice clean vector output. I use Sketchup for cut and fill, organic 3D work and online presentations (as I can draw easily in real-time). I too am continually hoping that Rhino will finally get there but it lacks some core features for an LA.

 

I understand the vertical curve issue has not yet been solved which makes kerbs and edging difficult.

I was using the lot layout tools but as they lack topological editing each lot has to be updated manually which is a real pain. I have this automated in Skecthup now and just reference pdfs in from SU > VW.

Also not being able to get superscripted 2's in makes for very ugly and unprofessional outputs  - I understand Apple versions do handle this.

 

I don't get hung up on fancy graphics as they don't usually help with client comprehension; they tend IMO to make clients say yes when they should think a bit more  before building.

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On July 9, 2017 at 5:41 PM, BCE said:

File format or more precisely Data Accuracy & Compliance is being decide right now AFAIK it's not IFC?

The data is either compliant or noncompliant with the standards & code, the latter is certified by engineers who prefer a more robust modelling kernel.

 

To be honest i dont really have much interest in having a conversation about programming. My concern is that i cannot efficiently and consistently export a useful file for collaboration with architects and Civil engineers. This completely defeats the purpose of the software for me. 

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10 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

Personally, I would rather take the back roads and have the trip take 10 minutes longer rather than sit in traffic not moving to save a couple of minutes.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself!

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I don't know guys. For me the program is like taking a rutted out back road--sure, it's scenic in a few places and get's me to point b, but slow as hell and giving me a headache. 

 

CAD isn't a hobby or something I do for novelty. It's a tool I use to document an idea and share that idea with other consultants and communicate through visuals with clients.

 

VWL is a good concept, going in the right direction, but needs to overhaul some of the site tools. Plain and simple. If the vectorworks people are going to insist that new users adjust their workflow and process to the program and pay a premium to hunto down their own learning resources, they're going to lose market share to autodesk and others. 

 

The fact of the matter is most users in architecture and landscape architecture are coming from an autocad environment, with traditional drafting workflows. This doesnt mean vw has to look and work more like ac, but it wouldnt hurt to look at your target market and understand what they're accustomed to and their industry standards for drafting and documentation.

 

The firms I have heard about or seen using vw seem to be only using it for illustrative or 2d drafting purposes only, for the most part. Others might be using some of the 3D and site grading tools, but have to use workarounds to complete a document set.

 

I'm sure with a few more 'lessons' I could use the tools more proficiently, but that doesn't invalidate my points--the tools that exist do not do what a professional LA needs, file sharing is buggy, and overall 3D modeling and 2D drafting tools are unintuitive and inconsistent.

 

Thats my feedback. I feel like I've wasted far more time than I've gained with the program and the liaisons seem uninterested.

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1 hour ago, nca777 said:

The firms I have heard about or seen using vw seem to be only using it for illustrative or 2d drafting purposes only, for the most part. Others might be using some of the 3D and site grading tools, but have to use workarounds to complete a document set.

 

This is too bad, as I have already mentioned...I can attest that we have found Vectorworks as easy as AutoCAD for simple 2-dimensional document set production, and far more efficient when integrating any sort of 3-dimensional workflow. The workarounds, although present, aren't really any more complicated that the workarounds we landscape architects have become accustomed to in AutoCAD, they're just different.

 

As for resources, we too get frustrated at the lack learning resources provided by VW, but I can attest that this forum and the personal support we have received far outweighs anything Autodesk could ever attempt to muster. If you are unwilling to utilize the resources that do exist, that is one thing, but to say that there aren't any is absurd...

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Landmark Learning Resources:

- Vectorworks website: training guides, webinars and courses.

- You Tube:  Many Landmark videos by Vectorworks and others.

- Third party books on Landmark by Jonathan Pickup of Archoncad and Tamsin Slatter.  Both provide training as well.

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Oh boy.

 

ok so why are there so many unresolved questions on this forum?

 

for example--

 

where is the tutorial on bringing in a dwg survey, converting to site model, referencing in archicad model from architect (as reference) properly siting building, grading the site with retaining, sloping driveway, terrace and autocourt, setting spot elevations (bottom and top of walls, finished surfaces, swales, etc) then properly exporting accurate models to engineers and architects for coordination, creating demo, tree protection, grading, layout and materials, planting, details, titleblock, etc, updating models, etc, etc....

 

sure, i can spend weeks on this board, sifting through youtube videos and cobbling together information from various sources, but frankly i think that is absurd. In fact, its exactly what i did...

 

i have found--

 

obsolete, two year old plus youtube videos, one or two minutes long

 

tasmin slatters gsg videos were a bit helpful but examples left me with more questions than answers--alot of the examples were oriented to landscape designers/small gardens. Gave me no info on referencing or sharing files, very little on layer/ class organization, very little on sheets and annotation, etc

 

i own jonathan pickups book and subscribe to his website--his latest web tutorials have been helpful, but fall short in terms of realistic parking layout, road layout and grading--really highlights a lot of the site model tools shortcomings.

 

we subscribe to service select, barely use it as it is diorganized, information is embedded in tutorials covering a range of unrelated topics, some of the videos are already free on youtube.

 

ive spoken with developers at vw directly, sometimes they get back with solutions, sometimes not. The trouble there is clearly the developers dont understand what professionals are actually doing. They speak a different language.

 

even after all of this. I fought thru the learning curve enough to say, some of the site modeling, drafting tools need major work.

 

if the program is that good, as cheap as a license is, and so easy to learn why is the majority of firms using other cad platforms??

Edited by nca777

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NCA,

 

No doubt ACAD is the leading platform in the US, but I think VW leads in Europe.  And, for the longest time, the website listed 500K users, but at the Summit last year, they said they now top 2 Million, having picked up many users in the recession, who found VW's combo of features and price hard to beat.  I certainly have found it easier to use than ACAD, haven't really tried the others.

 

That said, yes, I would love to work with them to make the grading tools better.  I listed a few, like drainage tools, swales on polylines, not just straight, push-pull like Sketchup (and then use the slice tool to draw the contour lines).  I agree, VW could think a little more like I do as a landscape designer.  But, the Wright Bros. didn't come out of the gate with a 747 either, and I think they will get there.  (However, I can retire in 4 years, so I hope its quick!)

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Bottom line is--

 

if vw is such a superior, cheap, and intuitive program, why are hardly any firms using it?

 

Again, im a fully capable technologically savvy designer, fluent in autocad, rhino, sketchup, full adobe suite, vray, lumion, etc...vw is just uniquely quirky. Quirky, however, i can deal with, but the tools do not work as advertised and clearly there is a disconnect between the developers and professional community.

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31 minutes ago, Rossford said:

NCA,

 

No doubt ACAD is the leading platform in the US, but I think VW leads in Europe.  And, for the longest time, the website listed 500K users, but at the Summit last year, they said they now top 2 Million, having picked up many users in the recession, who found VW's combo of features and price hard to beat.  I certainly have found it easier to use than ACAD, haven't really tried the others.

 

That said, yes, I would love to work with them to make the grading tools better.  I listed a few, like drainage tools, swales on polylines, not just straight, push-pull like Sketchup (and then use the slice tool to draw the contour lines).  I agree, VW could think a little more like I do as a landscape designer.  But, the Wright Bros. didn't come out of the gate with a 747 either, and I think they will get there.  (However, I can retire in 4 years, so I hope its quick!)

 

Thats all im asking--lets get real!

 

the tools need work and im sticking with my opinion that vw needs to put together more RELEVANT workflow tutorials for LA's.

 

As far as market share--

 

This community board is almost dead. There are 2 month old posts on the first page. If there are 2M plus users out there, where are they?! Where is their work? 

 

Why are the biggest la firms in the us avoiding vw? 

 

Edited by nca777
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nca77, if you set out what the workflows are that you need help with you will probably get help from the user base here.

 

If you want Vectorworks to change so it works exactly like Autocad then it isn't going to happen.  If you expect Vectorworks Landmark to have the capability of programs like Civilcad at a fraction of the price then you are also likely to be disappointed.

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1 hour ago, mike m oz said:

nca77, if you set out what the workflows are that you need help with you will probably get help from the user base here.

 

If you want Vectorworks to change so it works exactly like Autocad then it isn't going to happen.  If you expect Vectorworks Landmark to have the capability of programs like Civilcad at a fraction of the price then you are also likely to be disappointed.

 

I feel like I'm just not getting through.maybe my replies are too long?

 

1. No, I don't expect vw to work like ac. I expect it to do everything ac can do in terms of drafting PLUS generate a model with smart objects, specific tools for site grading, roads, parking, and planting. I can live without the command line and certainly open to a new BIM-oriented approach. My point there is maybe the developers could look at ac, for example, to understand where their target market is migrating from (or not). Some of AC's tools and commands are built around traditional drafting, which has become industry-standard. For example, creating a road alignment from the center line outward. It appear some users such as eric berg are designing roads. I'd be curious to see a detailed workflow tutorial on their drafting/modeling process. I think VW should compensate power users to develop in depth and comprehensive workflow videos that relate directly to real-world landscape architecture (in my industries case)projects.

 

2. On example workflow, again, would be drafting/modeling a parking lot with planting islands, curb and gutter, attached sidewalks. Sme with a typical streetscape with curbs, striping, rain gardens/planting islands, sidewalks, referencing an architects building model, referencing survey data--a big bonus would be laying this all over topography, but I suspect VW just doesnt permit this with current tools. I'd like to see a small landscape architecture project modeled and documened from beginning to end using typical methods--set up master file, layers, classes, reference in survey (shuttle files, etc?), reference in architects building model and floor plans, create site model, draft in plan from sketch, model proposed grading, model sloping driveways, parking, roads, curbs, layout planting, demo and tree protection, set up sheets with titleblock, go over site analysis, cut/fill/slopes, create materials and layout plans, details, etc...basically a full document set start to finish. I wouldnt have any trouble paying more for a license if I was CONFIDENT ot could do what I needed it to with a reasonable learning curve. 

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@nca777I went ahead and pulled up your records from the support team, it looks like the bulk of your questions were training related but in the notes you seemed to keep insisting there was an issue with the tools and commands where really the problem was knowing how to use them and what they could do. I can understand your desire for comprehensive and completely free of charge training, but the fact of the matter is that even if I started to fulfil your request from February when you joined the forum, there's no way the project would even be complete by the release of 2018, and thats if I worked on absolutely nothing else.

I completely agree that comprehensive training should be made available, not only on how the tools work but how one can use them in conjunction with each other, but these are already in development. I can understand your frustration with the speed at which new items are released, but for the time being we release on a yearly cycle, so any of the feedback added to the wish list wouldn't even have a chance of appearing until the release of the next full version. You say we seem uninterested and that the forum is dead, but these seem to just be stemming from your frustration at the speed of development or the lack of training materials to make you feel confident enough in your work.

Your concerns are heard. Just because we don't release a requested feature less than a year from the date of the wishlist post doesn't mean it will never exist, development takes time. The root cause of your frustrations seem to be related to using the software though, I highly recommend you get in direct contact with the Training department rather than Tech Support and schedule some one on one customized training. The trainers will often ask for copies of your current files and synopsis of what you're currently trying to do. Referencing this thread or other posts you've made in the past would work perfectly fine as well, so they can get a clearer picture of what you need before the session even starts. Regardless of the fact that your industry isn't specifically one of the primary industries we cater to,  (Unintentionally horrific wording, see: https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/50348-abandoning-vw-againsoftware-needs-fundamental-changes/&page=2#comment-253464 ) we can get someone to help you out. 

 

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