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My wish: VW2020 to have no new features. Please.

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2 hours ago, line-weight said:

I've edited the title of this thread to a request that VW2020 has no new features, because unfortunately it seems necessary to do so.

 

I here you. I was a VW2012 user but left for Chief Architect. Now I'm in the market for something that is better at commercial work to supplement Chief for residential. Chief unfortunately Chief sucks at commercial. I downloaded the VW2019 trial and a sample 5 story office plan......the program crashed 3 times when trying to render.

 

So that quickly answered that question. Archicad was too big a program. Now I'm reviewing Bricscad V19 Bim.

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36 minutes ago, CARMELHILL said:

 

I here you. I was a VW2012 user but left for Chief Architect. Now I'm in the market for something that is better at commercial work to supplement Chief for residential. Chief unfortunately Chief sucks at commercial. I downloaded the VW2019 trial and a sample 5 story office plan......the program crashed 3 times when trying to render.

 

So that quickly answered that question. Archicad was too big a program. Now I'm reviewing Bricscad V19 Bim.

I'd be interested in your assessment of Bricscad.

 

I really don't want to leave VW but feel like I am approaching the end of my tether...

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19 hours ago, line-weight said:

I really don't want to leave VW but feel like I am approaching the end of my tether...

 

I don't know how far I'll go with reviewing Bricscad. A real assessment requires learning the program and using it on at least one project. That's a huge undertaking when you have a full work load (sole proprietor) and 9 year old twins at home. Way back when I was single it was easy to dabble and learn new programs still 3am, but at 47 years old, I'm tired of this. I might stick to Chief and deal with it's shortcomings in commercial. It'll probably lead to less lost production time when considering reviewing a new program that might possibly be a dead end. 

 

Your comments about VW being buggy are nerve wracking. Everything in Chief works, and works awesome. There's just no tools for commercial work, keynotes, ceiling grid tools,  or ability to do freeform modern residential....no slanted walls. They try to market some designs that look like Frank Lyod WRight stuff, but it's very limiting...horizontal and vertical. You can probably different stuff with solids modeling but then, so can sketchup and every other program.

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7 minutes ago, CARMELHILL said:

 

A real assessment requires learning the program and using it on at least one project. That's a huge undertaking when you have a full work load (sole proprietor)

 

Pretty much my situation too and the reason I've not tried anything else so far except for a bit of investigation into whether Sketchup was viable alternative - it wasn't because of the lack of 2d drafting capability.

 

I would say that VW is also fairly limited in what it can do, without using solids modelling. Using solids modelling you can do just about anything of course but then you run into some problems making the model into decent plans and sections. This may be the case for most software - I don't know as it's so difficult to test other packages in depth for the reasons you describe. A friend who uses Revit seems reasonably impressed though.

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1 hour ago, line-weight said:

I would say that VW is also fairly limited in what it can do,

 

But as long as you can work inside these limits, VW is incredible fast and comfortable.

 

Yes, if you exceed the limits, and you can do that pretty easy, that's where the fun ends - but it is possible !

 

An architectural alternative is Archicad,

whenever I tried it, I didn't feel limited that fast. It is a bit steeper in price though.

 

Bricscad is another special Alternative, that I bought as a companion Software beside VW.

But Bricscad works pretty different than VW in any aspect.

If until now you liked the VW user experience and usage and are just missing a few things,

you may hate Bricscad's Autocad UX behind the BIM.

If you already know how Autocad works and feels and have not much problems with Autocad,

go for it and test it if it could suit your Projects.

 

I recommend downloading Bricscad Shape first, watch their nice Tutorial or Intro Videos and

play with it. Shape is free, so there is no hurry and you can play whenever and as long

as you like.

Shape is Bricscad's essence of Direct Modeling and Development that exceeds the

Autocad-ness under it, but from time to time Autocad-ness will shine through nevertheless.

 

 

1 hour ago, line-weight said:

Using solids modelling you can do just about anything

 

That is the advantage of Bricscad BIM, doing everything by using true Solids.

Which allows deviations from standard geometries without running into the limits of PIO's.

So it is worth to download a 30 day Trial and trying to create an own typical "Project".

(You can ask for another 30 days if needed)

 

But you may also notice that VW's history based Modeling and PIOs, even if limited in

non-standard cases, can do these standard cases very well and faster.

So no ideal BIM CAD in sight, just differences, advantages here vs disadvantages there.

 

 

 

Edited by zoomer
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Thanks for the comments @zoomer

 

Autocad was the first CAD software I used... but haven't done since around 2001!

 

I might have a look at BricsCad videos etc at some point.

 

Also tempted to consider Archicad. I used that for about a year once...again, back in around 2000.

 

There's the price factor, and for me, for a while this has been something very much in VW's favour. However, as soon as I get busy with fee earning work, the cost of messing around with software that doesn't work properly quickly cancels out that advantage.

 

We are going a bit off subject though. I wonder if it would be good to have a software comparison thread.

Edited by line-weight

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1 hour ago, line-weight said:

 

Pretty much my situation too and the reason I've not tried anything else so far except for a bit of investigation into whether Sketchup was viable alternative - it wasn't because of the lack of 2d drafting capability.

 

I would say that VW is also fairly limited in what it can do, without using solids modelling. Using solids modelling you can do just about anything of course but then you run into some problems making the model into decent plans and sections. This may be the case for most software - I don't know as it's so difficult to test other packages in depth for the reasons you describe. A friend who uses Revit seems reasonably impressed though.

 

Vector Works was developed as Minicad in the 80s from Clariscad I believe, I think it's alway been basically a building design programme, certainly since it became Vectorworks and it's been developed ever since in that way, although with branch outs into landscape, lighting etc.

 

To be fair I think it would be asking a bit much to expect it to be a solids modelling programme in the way that Form Z or 3D Studio max is. It's more a case of horses for courses or tools to suit the job in hand really.

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2 hours ago, line-weight said:

A friend who uses Revit seems reasonably impressed though.

 

I won't go to Autodesk. They switched to the subscription model. You don't pay, you lose access to all your drawing files forever. What happens in a recession, or if you get sick and need to stop for a year or two.....the bills is always due. And it's a steep bill.

 

This is a big marketing part of Bricscad. One fee, you own it. But you also own VW and Chief. But I see more and more going the subscription route, like Adobe. Oh I hate those people.

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20 minutes ago, Cadplan Architecture said:

 

Vector Works was developed as Minicad in the 80s from Clariscad I believe, I think it's alway been basically a building design programme, certainly since it became Vectorworks and it's been developed ever since in that way, although with branch outs into landscape, lighting etc.

 

To be fair I think it would be asking a bit much to expect it to be a solids modelling programme in the way that Form Z or 3D Studio max is. It's more a case of horses for courses or tools to suit the job in hand really.

 

If it's a building design programme then you should be able to model (within reason) any building in it. At the moment you very definitely can't do that using the standard tools/objects, hence it's necessary to use the solid modelling parts. VW's solids modelling is perfectly adequate: where it falls short is translating a model that doesn't stick to standard objects into a correct set of plans, elevations and so on. And it's nowhere near being able to produce construction details from the model (I don't think anything is though).

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15 minutes ago, CARMELHILL said:

 

I won't go to Autodesk. They switched to the subscription model. You don't pay, you lose access to all your drawing files forever. What happens in a recession, or if you get sick and need to stop for a year or two.....the bills is always due. And it's a steep bill.

 

This is a big marketing part of Bricscad. One fee, you own it. But you also own VW and Chief. But I see more and more going the subscription route, like Adobe. Oh I hate those people.

 

I'd understood that there was a non-subscription option for Revit. But I agree, I don't want to go near anything that forces me into a permanent subscription.

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4 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

If it's a building design programme then you should be able to model (within reason) any building in it. At the moment you very definitely can't do that using the standard tools/objects, hence it's necessary to use the solid modelling parts. VW's solids modelling is perfectly adequate: where it falls short is translating a model that doesn't stick to standard objects into a correct set of plans, elevations and so on. And it's nowhere near being able to produce construction details from the model (I don't think anything is though).

 

Construction detailing is something else, we always draw building in 2D purely for clarity and depth of detailing,  you may be searching for something that isn't there.

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Just now, Cadplan Architecture said:

 

Construction detailing is something else, we always draw building in 2D purely for clarity and depth of detailing,  you may be searching for something that isn't there.

 

I know, I also do large scale construction detailing in 2D and don't expect that to change any time soon.

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Bricscad V19 looks pretty awesome... but they all do in promo vids! I've just spent an entire evening and day trying to get VW to render elevations.. and its not even a big project. The lost time with 2018 and now 19 on random things is frustrating. Now that v19 has site modelling, it might be work another look - I cerrtainly don't want to have to learn another package like I did moving from Revit to VW... the thought is depressing... but so are the tools that need way to many clicks to use and the hanging and bugs..

I thought the conference keynote where they said the focus was on quality was a kick in the teeth with this release.. I'd just like the essential stuff to work but I get a image editor I'll never use.

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1 hour ago, CARMELHILL said:

I won't go to Autodesk

 

I will not go subscription-only based licenses.

 

I know for sure since VRAY4C4D went to Chaos Group.

As you said, to know you can't even do some learning or work with your files

in bad times where you have no job and money - but time - is too much

pressure for me as a freelancer. I will stick with my perpetual VRAY for R19.

 

Of course I would also never switch to Autocad, I hate everything. Commandline

Input, one-time-only Selection and Tools, ....

The only thing I value is Selection Marquee left/right or green/blue =

included/intersection mode ...

 

I think the majority of VW Users are true Mac Users - even if they use Windows.

They don't like to get distracted from design work by technical issues, prefer to

click on Icons and even may use a Magic Mouse.

That "Hey, VW is quite easy, a bit like Photoshop" (at leat for 2D) is unique in CAD

and you will not find that Macromedia Freehand-ish intuitive 2D Drawing and design

in other CADs. At least not in any Autocad based CAD.

 

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2 hours ago, line-weight said:

Autocad was the first CAD software I used... but haven't done since around 2001!

 

If you feel no pain when you remember these times > try Bricscad !

 

 

Revit.

Autodesk somehow abandoned Autocad and DWG anyway.

Always changing proprietary DWG format to prevent competition worked so well for

decades, but since Open Design Alliance making it accessible for anyone and companies

like Bricsys even extending and improving DWG for also BIM and Mechanical made it

somehow obsolet for Autodesk.

They now rely on their more proprietary and still save proprietary File Formats of

Mechanical Desktop and Revit. But the Wall is crumbling at that front either.

Although Revit is used here very often and sounds like a standard in commercial BIM,

Revit's market share isn't that large as one would think. Especially world wide.

IFC is a real problem for them.

A large part is owned also by Nemetschek - Allplan, but mainly constantly growing

Archicad and Vectorworks.

 

I am pretty curious how all will look in another 10 years ...

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it seems like we are dominated by 2 major issues...

 

1. Finding the right hardware to match the software.

2. Making sheets so others can build.

 

I'm biting my tongue...but you know what I'm about to say...🤭

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21 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said:

1. Finding the right hardware to match the software.

2. Making sheets so others can build.

 

Were you backwards on #1? An expensive video card is all Chief needs and 16g of memory. The CPU is only used for Raytracing hwich is too time consuming to bother with. 

 

Chief is a great program but it lacks the 2d tools that VW has. There are a bunch of Chief guys on my other forum telling me that I should think about two platforms for my office. Oh god. I can't imagine. Chief automatically does my Rescheck for all my house projects. But again, we only received a CAD stretch tool in last years release. Yup. Last year. That's absolutely insane.

 

Then there's the other side....another Chiefer told me he uses Chief to design his projects, and up until recently, he was using Archicad to do the construction drawings. He admited he does a lot of redrawing. Why? WHY WHY WHY? Why do that to yourself. One design change and you have to draft everything over again.

 

Some guys use three programs.....design, renderings (Lumion), and construction drawings.

 

Ultimately I'm pissed that a lot of programmers don't see my end game. I don't get paid to design design and design again. There are only so many revisions I will do before I get rid of the client. I won't go crazy with these pretty eye candy 360 Virtual Reality Goggles or Online Cloud based 3d Models for the client to play with. It seams the more renderings and VR you give clients, the more they want, the more they change, the more time I spend revising the design. I WANT 2D PRODUCTION TOOLS so I can wrap up the job and get paid. Production drawings pay the bills, not fanciful whimsical Richard Meyer wannabe, Gugenhim flowing, Paul Getty abstract aghhhhhh.

 

But I digress.

 

Edited by CARMELHILL

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6 minutes ago, CARMELHILL said:

I WANT 2D PRODUCTION TOOLS

if all you are doing is 2d then why not just do lines and projection drawings...I always found VW to be really stable with with 2d only....this way you are not mixing 2d & 3d..

 

use symbols for doors and windows for ultimate control 

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3 hours ago, zoomer said:

I am pretty curious how all will look in another 10 years ...

 

This is all part of the calculation/gamble of course.

 

Even if a really promising looking new application appeared now; one that seemed to fit my needs, if I was deciding about switching to it I'd be thinking about the likelihood of it surviving and gaining a big enough userbase that it continued being updated in the long term.

 

And one of my thoughts about VW right now is not just about all its problems, but the rate at which the problems are (not) being fixed and what that means for its long term future.

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5 hours ago, JMR said:

The 2019 release was baffling. It was supposed to be about quality,

 

2019 has fixed the the VGM and its ability to make VPs faster and cleaner...I have seen major improvements in my ability to make VPs...and the multi core was a major undertaking...

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19 minutes ago, digitalcarbon said:

 

 

2019 has fixed the the VGM and its ability to make VPs faster and cleaner...I have seen major improvements in my ability to make VPs...and the multi core was a major undertaking...

 

I think @JMR's points were related specifically to issues relevant to architects. As I understand it, you do not use VW for architectural drawings. As another architecture user I agree completely with all of the points he makes. VW seems to have a problem understanding what's important to architects and how functions relate to actual workflow in the real world.

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I spend 15 years using VW in 2 architectural offices trying to get the tools to work with the architectural mindsets of these offices...frustrating.

 

Now, on my own (2014) I have abandoned that paradigm & gone for:

"this is where it's located." (VW, UTM)

"this is how you assemble it." (VW Plans & Sections)

"these are all the parts you need to order" (VW BOM)

"these are the parts you need to have fabricated" (Onshape & OpenBOM)

(ok... maybe I'm using VW more like a MCAD system)

 

Then release by way of Bluebeam Revu.

 

Would do a building the same way...maybe it would be a disaster...don't know...

 

 

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Until they fix the beta process there will always be bugs that aren't caught.

8 hours ago, JMR said:

-Switch to biannual or triannual version cycle. Look at what McNeel does with Rhino, major updates are few and far between and overall quality is great.

I suspect the quality is great because they have a much more open development and beta process that many users participate in.

3 hours ago, digitalcarbon said:

2019 has fixed the the VGM and its ability to make VPs faster and cleaner...I have seen major improvements in my ability to make VPs...and the multi core was a major undertaking...

This is a great improvement. But it is super buggy so far. I see all sorts of display issues on sheet layers at the moment.

 

Feature development needs much more input from a wide variety of users. There are just too many different Vectorworks workflows to address in development without it. Then the features need to be tested and there needs to be a process for making improvements and bug fixes based on that testing. Essentially VW2019 is actually VW2020 but with an official process to back it up.

 

Kevin

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