Windows - Offset Sash and Jamb Separation

[khumenny]

 

Hi Guys,

 

I’m working on a passive house and have a question about windows in thick walls with a sash offset. 

If you look at the attached image you can see that though the sash is offset the separation between int & ext jamb stays centred… which makes it impossible to have separate ext colour / int colour in renderings.

 

Am I missing a setting or is there a work-around that anyone knows of?

[Christiaan]

Can you post the a file with the window in wall so I can better understand your query?

Edited August 2, 2019 by Christiaan

[khumenny]

Thanks Christian, here's a simple file extracted from my working file, with the same settings.

Window File.vwx

[Christiaan]

Okay, I think you're using the jamb element in a way that's not intended and that doesn't accord to how the a window will actually be constructed. The sash should be the opening element of the window and the jamb should be the fixed frame part of the window. I can see what you're trying to do; to use the jamb element to address some deficiencies in the way Vectorworks deals with window reveals (in particular the inability to return finishes into the reveal in 3D). 

 

So my first suggestion is to change the jamb configuration settings to accord with how a window would actually be constructed, i.e. the jamb as the outer frame of the window and the sash as the opening elements. In the attached file I've just zeroed out the jamb for now because I need to shoot off, but I've attached an example window from one of my projects too.

 

The second thing is how to deal with the deficiencies I mentioned earlier. My general approach to this problem is to manually change the Texture of each Wall Component in the Wall Style to accord with how it needs to look in 3D, rather than leaving it set to Class Texture. In your case unfortunately this doesn't align perfectly with your window offset, so to deal with this I would tend to artificially break a Wall Component down into two parts so I can apply two different Textures. I've edited your file using this approach and attached it. It's not perfect but you can alter your approach depending on what stage you're at in a project and what kind of information you need to extract from your model.

 

My next step is usually to model the sill in 3D manually as an Auto-hybrid from various extrudes. You'll find an external aluminium example in the file attached. You can use the same approach for an internal one or you could try using the in-built sill in the Window Object, but I've never had much luck with that.

 

Window File.vwx

window-example.vwx.zip

Edited August 2, 2019 by Christiaan

[khumenny]

Thanks for in depth response, much appreciated!
That all makes sense, I guess I should be using the jamb elements as intended....

And I've used that approach on the wall component textures before for parapet walls, etc. so I should have figured that one out myself.

 

Thanks again, I'm going to fix this up now.

[Christiaan]

No prob 👍🏼

[zoomer]

The benelux Windows and partly the german Windows can deal with

the Windows reveals.

The australian Windoor maybe too.

 

I also misuse the Jambs for covering all the time ...

[Christiaan]

10 hours ago, zoomer said:

The benelux Windows and partly the german Windows can deal with

the Windows reveals.

The australian Windoor maybe too.

 

Surprise surprise.

 

Quote

 

I also misuse the Jambs for covering all the time ...

What do you then use for your actual jamb? And how do you deal with the line it forms in the elevation around the reveal?

[zoomer]

What I mostly need for commercial buildings are additions of Windows,

more like a Curtain Wall inside a long Window Opening.

 

For Visualization purposes it is much easier to control the reveal coverings

by a single Windows Jamb - over the whole window width - but uses the

Sash to fake the Jamb.

Has also the advantage to have a single Glass Pane element for the whole opening.

I will add vertical Bars later by a simple Extrude from multiple Rectangle "profiles"

over the whole Building size. One for each Story.

(Which keeps VW'S 2D comfort for changes and easy copying)

 

So a workaround not suitable for any serious calculations, BOM or 2D plan generation (?).

 

 

But because of also needing large Sash (=Jamb) Offsets,

I run into the same problems with the real Jamb as covering, when I need separate

Materials for inner and outer side.

 

 

And, for Visualization, I would not necessarily need any real 1-2 cm 3D coverings around

openings. I would be happy just with separate Materials for Wall's Cutouts.

Unfortunately you can only apply separate Materials per Wall sides for a whole Wall.

But not for separate Material by side control for each Wall Component.

So working around with Wall Styles doesn't work either.

I think this should ideally be the Job of the Windows PIO, like done in benelux Tools.

[drelARCH]

On 8/2/2019 at 7:20 PM, Christiaan said:

Okay, I think you're using the jamb element in a way that's not intended and that doesn't accord to how the a window will actually be constructed. The sash should be the opening element of the window and the jamb should be the fixed frame part of the window. I can see what you're trying to do; to use the jamb element to address some deficiencies in the way Vectorworks deals with window reveals (in particular the inability to return finishes into the reveal in 3D). 

 

So my first suggestion is to change the jamb configuration settings to accord with how a window would actually be constructed, i.e. the jamb as the outer frame of the window and the sash as the opening elements. In the attached file I've just zeroed out the jamb for now because I need to shoot off, but I've attached an example window from one of my projects too.

 

The second thing is how to deal with the deficiencies I mentioned earlier. My general approach to this problem is to manually change the Texture of each Wall Component in the Wall Style to accord with how it needs to look in 3D, rather than leaving it set to Class Texture. In your case unfortunately this doesn't align perfectly with your window offset, so to deal with this I would tend to artificially break a Wall Component down into two parts so I can apply two different Textures. I've edited your file using this approach and attached it. It's not perfect but you can alter your approach depending on what stage you're at in a project and what kind of information you need to extract from your model.

 

My next step is usually to model the sill in 3D manually as an Auto-hybrid from various extrudes. You'll find an external aluminium example in the file attached. You can use the same approach for an internal one or you could try using the in-built sill in the Window Object, but I've never had much luck with that.

 

Window File.vwx

window-example.vwx.zip

Hi Christiaan,

 

Thanks for sharing window file with forum.  I really like your window setup, it looks really like proper modern window. Nice job.

I have some questions though:

- how did you manage to bring brick texture right to the edge of window frame? Using exterior wall detial components and external finish texture set to object/component and all wall sides...doesnt work for me....And generally i have lot of issues using wall detail feature. Its really mess...

- is there same way to control precisely which edges are on which not?  I mean, in your file with openGL on and with edges on only some of edges are visible(at least what i see on my screen)...I like that especially with window frame that it makes some edges 'soft' (ones without edge) and some hard (ones on). Is there some settings to selectively set that?

 

Thanks for any advice and your time.

Pavol

 

[Christiaan]

Hey Pavol, sorry I missed your message last week.

 

Make sure the Render Mode for all walls is set to By Component. In my example the brick texture is then brought right to the edge of the window frame by manually setting the texture of the Cavity component in the Wall Style to the brick texture (instead of using the Class component texture, which is clear). In this window detail it's the Cavity component that is aligning with the window but it could be a different component depending on your window detail. All I'm essentially doing is manually setting the texture any wall components to the outside of the window to brickwork and any components to the inside of the window to white paint.

 

If you have a situation where a component doesn't align nicely with the window then you have to artificially break the closest component up into two so that you can set one part of the component to one texture and the other part to a different texture.

 

With regard to which Edges show lines in OpenGL have a play around with the Crease Angle setting in your OpenGL settings. In my file it's set to zero.

 

There were a couple of errors with that file I posted by the way. The outer component Top and Bottom bindings were set to levels that aren't in the file and 'Use World Z For Origin' wasn't checked in the OIP Render tab, which was causing the brickwork textures to be misaligned across components. Corrected file attached.

 

window-example.vwx