Creating double curved structures

[suz]

Hello team!

 

I used nurbs curve tool to draw two lines and loft them to together - but struggling to get the shapes I want and mainly accidental.

Do you use locus tool to set points where you draw the nurbs lines first?

 

Thanks a bunch in advance

Suzy

Edited August 18, 2023 by suz

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Hi Suz,

3D locus points are very useful for setting Curves.  Not unlike the 3D polygons.  Can you post a Shape that you are interested in?  I can look at it tomorrow, but perhaps one of the other NURBS people can help sooner.

 

If these shapes are for visualization purposes only, have a look at "Create surface from Curves" in the 3D power pack menu.

[Tom W.]

@suz another technique you could try is to extrude a rectangle then use the Taper Face + Deform tools on it. This would be a very quick + easy way to achieve some of the forms in your images.

[jmcewen]

@VIRTUALENVIRONS is more NURBS friendly than I am, but another way to find those curves if you are working from flat orthographics is to trace 2 separate views and extrude each one, then arrange them so they intersect appropriately.  At that point you can use analysis to find the curve at the intersection. You might need to repeat a few times to generate enough curves to generate a surface, but the process is pretty quick, and judicious planning of what you trace for each extrusion can yield multiple curves to save some repetition.

 

I have often gotten a PDF of orthos that were plainly derived from a 3d model, but I was told the models didn't exist, so I have done some variation of this process a lot (but I didn't know about analysis when I was at that job so there were more steps involved!)

[jmcewen]

Just now, Tom W. said:

@suz another technique you could try is to extrude a rectangle then use the Taper Face + Deform tools on it. This would be a very quick + easy way to achieve some of the forms in your images.

I am learning I like deform when I am making something new that I am in control of the final look. It is fun to push and pull and say it looks like what I intended.

 

Matching existing with deform is a little more difficult, and I am learning the value of NURBS processes in that use case.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

At the bottom of this message is a link to my Youtube Channel.  Not monetized, purely pro bono.  Once there, click on the icon shown below.  It will take you to my channel.

There are a number of intermediate to advanced NURBS tutorials.  Somewhere in those tutorials are what you need to know.

 

 

[Tom W.]

4 minutes ago, jmcewen said:

I am learning I like deform when I am making something new that I am in control of the final look. It is fun to push and pull and say it looks like what I intended.

 

Matching existing with deform is a little more difficult, and I am learning the value of NURBS processes in that use case.

 

I think it's a really useful + powerful tool in the right context. I had an old building to model a year or two back: I had a laser scan of the building + found extruding solids then 'sculpting' them with Taper Face + Deform (+ rotating them with Rotate) was the best way to recreate it, as it was just a matter of manipulating the solids until their faces fell into line with the point cloud geometry.

 

Bent/twisted roof beams for example:

 

 

Like you say it depends what your source material is + what you're trying to achieve.

 

 

[Kevin Allen]

IIRC, I have created similar shapes with a couple of rectangles and loft with rail.

[Mark Aceto]

Obligatory Blender comment.

[Jeff Prince]

55 minutes ago, Mark Aceto said:

Obligatory Blender comment.

 

Obligatory Rhino / SubD comment.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Jeff Prince

[Mark Aceto]

I’m sitting on a tarmac right now so I can’t remember every VW modeling tool that works with the 3D Dragger (gumball, gizmo) but it’s super fun to reshape those asymmetrical tapered Richard Serra sculptures.

[Mark Aceto]

Obviously SubD works with this too:

 

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

10 hours ago, suz said:

but struggling to get the shapes I want

Suz, you seem to bring out all the good people when you post.  Great ideas and visuals, nice to see Tom post images.

 

Outside of specialized modules in Rhino,  (Jewelry, sculpting), there is very little  that Rhino or Blender can build that Vectorworks can't.  Rhino actively seeks apex modellers, where VW does not.  For every post on 3D I see the same talented people, but they are few where Rhino has hundreds of thousands.

 

Vectorworks has its reasons I suppose for not pushing NURBS.

  

There is one thing that both Rhino and Blender can't do and that is produce a solid model.

 

Anyway, the shape below carries its own local coordinate system for scaling, rotating, etc.  This is something that is not a function of VW, but my own set of tricks.

 

[Kevin Allen]

depends one the desired end results. The OP showed a number of options, some will work well as SubD some as NURBS, in either case user preference wins the day.

[jmcewen]

3 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

I think it's a really useful + powerful tool in the right context. I had an old building to model a year or two back: I had a laser scan of the building + found extruding solids then 'sculpting' them with Taper Face + Deform (+ rotating them with Rotate) was the best way to recreate it, as it was just a matter of manipulating the solids until their faces fell into line with the point cloud geometry.

 

Bent/twisted roof beams for example:

 

 

Like you say it depends what your source material is + what you're trying to achieve.

 

 

As always, we will have a hundred ways proposed to do something and every one of them will be 100% correct.  Use-case, inputs, and client expectations make all the difference in the world.

 

That model looks great!  I would not want to be stuck trying to recreate those beams in the real world though!🤪

[Tom W.]

13 minutes ago, jmcewen said:

I would not want to be stuck trying to recreate those beams in the real world though!

 

Ha ha nope that wouldn't be a good idea... But having the existing conditions modelled relatively accurately allows me to pull straight lines over the front of those timbers + anticipate with a degree of precision the size the interior spaces will end up being, so there is a method to the madness...🙂

[Mark Aceto]

15 hours ago, suz said:

Do you use locus tool to set points where you draw the nurbs lines first?

You can also draw a 3D wireframe cage to align and snap to (one of the features VW has an advantage of over the competition) if you need that level of precision vs just eyeballing it.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Hi Suz,

I rushed something out yesterday, have more time this morning.  The object below in the video is extremely accurate and could be much more complex.  It has the accuracy required for a car body for reference.

 

 It also has history, not in the sense of VW history, but the curvature, bulges, etc. can be modified endlessly.  I used twelve cross sections (matched curves), each has their own Local Coordinate system.  It is also not the end, but the beginning for this object.  I have extracted some curves and added extra geometry.  This geometry can be acted upon by Solids, like any other solid model.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by VIRTUALENVIRONS

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

HI Suz

Your thread seems to have been hijacked, but that's OK, it's what we do.  Having said that I will stray even further.

The Rhino 3D/ Blender thing.

The tools to match or exceed Rhino/Blender exists within Vectorworks, they are just not apparent.  Why, only VW's can answer that question, but I feel it should be addressed.  I can't imagine spending the money to buy/rent Vectorworks and then finding out on this forum that you should have bought something else.

 

I have been in contact with Rhino 3D in particular over the SubD module.

The image below shows two objects modelled in Vectorworks.  By any stretch, they are complex.  This is how Rhino 3D would model them.  Notice that even the vaunted SubD would not be used in the more complex jet, even though Rhino's SubD is NURBS based.

 

Hi Paul, 
I'd use NURBS lofts and Network Surfaces for the jet. I'd use SubD for the computer mouse's initial form and then convert it to NURBS for the button cutouts and housing parting lines.

 

 

 

[Mark Aceto]

15 hours ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

The Rhino 3D/ Blender thing.

The tools to match or exceed Rhino/Blender exists within Vectorworks, they are just not apparent.  Why, only VW's can answer that question, but I feel it should be addressed.  I can't imagine spending the money to buy/rent Vectorworks and then finding out on this forum that you should have bought something else.

Blender is free and runs circles around VW modeling (and sculpting). Both apps have their pros and cons. It’s OK for VW users to have more than one tool in their kit to get the job done.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

7 hours ago, Mark Aceto said:

circles around VW modeling (and sculpting).

Sculpting and a few more features (jewellery) in Rhino 3d are excellent tools, but these are tools for animation and not Architecture or Engineering.  I suppose I should have been clearer.  Blender although free is a mesh modeller as opposed to Surface or Solid.  Limits it to visualization, but a good tool none the less.

Back to Vectorworks.

If you go find Rhino 3D's home page a look at cars for example.  They have a lot of really great cars picked from thousands of apex users all over the world, a lot from Europe.  The images below are from Vectorworks OGHD.

 

-The first car was modelled in Vectorworks ten years ago and rendered in CINEMA 4D.  This was done before the "Send to C4D" command.

-The second car was modelled eight years ago and shown to Vectorworks at that time.  It prompted a lot of back and forth dialogue as to whether it was time to push NURbS, but in the end no.  Also done before the Send to C4D command.

-The third Car was modelled in VW's two months ago.  They were all done with the exact same tools over the ten year period.

 

If these cars were on Rhino 3D's gallery page, you could not tell the difference as to whether they were made with which program.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by VIRTUALENVIRONS

[mjm]

9 hours ago, Mark Aceto said:

Blender is free and runs circles around VW modeling (and sculpting). Both apps have their pros and cons. It’s OK for VW users to have more than one tool in their kit to get the job done.

@Mark Aceto Gonna just jump in here and say not only OK, but necessary these days. 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

20 minutes ago, mjm said:

Gonna just jump in here and say not only OK, but necessary these days. 

I do absolutely agree and to add, it has been necessary for the last twenty five years.  Everything I have worked on for more than thirty years now has been with two or three programs and sometimes platforms, build on Mac, transfer to SGI.

I always dial into other peoples problems and sometimes they are new to me as I work in a different field where Vectorworks is a key player.  The eco-system or as I still call it the pipeline is very complex.  The jet was easy to model, but where it has to go is much more complex.

The short video below has a few seconds from a six hour sequel.  Everything was modelled in VW's.  This would be a stretch for Blender or even Rhino

 

 

 

[Jeff Prince]

4 hours ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

Everything was modelled in VW's.  This would be a stretch for Blender or even Rhino

This demonstrates your fundamental lack of experience and understanding of Blender.  That video could be not only modeled, but also video edited, and sound engineered completely within Blender.
 

But you didn’t know that because you don’t know Blender.  Maybe you should stick with what you know… replicating things other people designed using antiquated methods.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

The Pipeline.

Let's try this again.  Although Blender is a great tool, it's number one stated value is that it is free.  C4D is expensive, but widely regarded as a professional tool.

The difference between VW's and any other application besides C4D is they are still two application.  Used as intended, VW and C4D together are a single application.  Mostly VW to C4D, but the reverse is simple also. 

For renderings or short animations, not really a big advantage, but if you are making movies, a fantastic relationship.

See Below.