Project Sharing Issue - Data Loss

[TaylorK]

Hi All

 

We've recently started using a project sharing workflow with Vectorworks Cloud Services (though I've recreated this issue with dropbox as well) and one thing we started noticing is that we're getting some random data loss.

 

Objects and walls are disappearing at random. I've attached a before and after. I saved and committed, closed out of the working file and reopened the project file and objects that were there have disappeared. I'm the only one in the file at the time and no additional changes were made. I can pretty reliably recreate this everytime I save and commit and reopen the project file, but there's no pattern to what disappears.

 

Let me know if there is anything we're doing incorrectly.

 

Thanks

[TaylorK]

 I'm starting to notice a pattern. The objects seem to be disappearing pretty much exclusively from symbols. When another user updates a unit symbol for example to update an area or make another adjustment after they've committed their changes and other users update their file walls and other objects in those symbols seem to go missing. Once again this isn't a class visibility issue they just disappear. 

 

One thing I noticed about the project sharing workflow that I noticed was odd was that when a user edits a symbol in plan they do not get a prompt to check that object out at all or any object within when moving objects? Could this be the cause of the data loss? It seems to me that editing a symbol should prompt that symbol to be checked out to the user, but maybe I'm missing something.

[Steve Murray]

I'm having exactely the same issue.

It's not clear how symbols and other resource should be managed in shared files!!!

[_James]

Which version of VW are you using? It would be disappointing if this is with the new version of Project Sharing in VW2024

[Christiaan]

I'm curious to know which version too. Data handling is much better in v2024, but as there were major changes in the way v2024 handles project sharing data it could also be a bug related to those changes.

[TaylorK]

I can confirm its an issue in both 2021 & 2023, haven't tested in 2024 yet though. May need to switch to using design layer viewports if the issue presists. We've also tried hosting the symbols in another file and referencing those in. But things still disappear from the symbols in the main file. Though it is easy to rectify if this happens by just simply rereferencing the symbols from the Unit plan file. We just recently updated to 2023 but I'll test in 2024 and report back if the issue is coninuing.

[Steve Murray]

I'm having it in 2024...

I also tried to move the symbols in a external library file but no joy

vectorDOESNTwork

Edited October 6, 2023 by Steve Murray

[TaylorK]

Dang, unfortunate that this isn't fixted in 2024. Hopefully they can streamline the reapeated unit tool thats in the pipeline to solve this issue. May be the single biggest thing holding back our firm from fully implimenting a BIM workflow in VW.

[Rick Berge]

Let me check your understanding here: resources like classes or symbol definitions are not things that get checked out.  If more than one user makes changes to them, when the second person refreshes or commits, then Vectorworks will state that there is a resource conflict and ask which copy you want to keep.  Is that the behavior you are seeing?  The last person to commit is going to "win" and only their change will go in for that symbol.

[TaylorK]

The behavior that is an issue is really that objects are dissapearing from symbols even though they aren't edit or modified at all by any users. I'm hypothesizing that its linked to having to do with project sharing as it only occurs in files that have been made into a project sharing file. Data loss in symbols doesn't show up in regular VWX files.

 

I even tried moving all our unit plan symbols to an external .VWX file and referencing the symbol to the project file. Objects and walls are still disappearing from the unit symbols in the project file even though they are referenced in. If you open up the referenced file those objects are still there.

 

EDIT: I should say I know that it is a loss issue as I've been the only one in the files as of late, so other users changing things is eliminated. We've also tried using different project sharing methods ie Project sharing server, VW Cloud, and dropbox and have expirienced the same issues.

Edited October 11, 2023 by TaylorK

[TaylorK]

Here's an example of the data loss. A door has disappeared from this unit symbol and you can see that no changes were made to the referenced file. Going back to the referenced file you can see the door is still there. You can correct this by editing that symbol again and saving, but you can see why this is an insidious issue as this happends seamingly at random and its tough to quality control our documents. Same issue was happening when the unit symbols were hosted in the project file as well, this method just allows us to revert should any data loss happens. 

 

If somone edits the referenced symbol in the project file it will bake that data loss back to the referenced file so its not just a visibility issue those objects are acutally dissapearing.  I'll see if I can find an example to show for that as well.

Edited October 11, 2023 by TaylorK

[TaylorK]

 

Here is an example of the the data loss baking those changes back if someone edits the referenced symbol.

[Rick Berge]

Thanks for these, @TaylorK.  Our PS developers are taking a look at this to see what we find.  We may have more questions about your workflows as we dig into it more.  Feel free to contact me directly with any comments or questions. 

[TaylorK]

Hi @Rick Berge I appreciate you all looking into this. Happy to answer any questions you all have.

 

Thanks !

[Rick Berge]

I wanted to post a followup here where a lot of people can see this.  We continue to investigate, but this message might be the answer for one or more of you:

 

For one of our users, it turned out that a Project File was in a place where it could be accessed via different technologies at the same time. After that there is no longer a single point governing exclusive access to changes, nor a single source of truth. Two users are able to make writes to the same file at the same time, and all guarantees go out the window. In short, server + cloud folder = not good.  Project Sharing Server + file server = not good.  SMB + AFP = not good. 

 

When we see fundamental issues like this, we try to find ways to avoid the problem in the first place. Not always easy, when we have no idea how your IT infrastructure looks. SMB vs AFP is an example where we added a setting into the project file setup several versions back, so we could detect and warn if an SMB project was suddenly accessed via an AFP share.  We'll be revisiting these kinds of settings in VW2025 to detect things like cloud + non-cloud access, and adding some new alerts and info on dialogs and help. 

 

Hope this helps somebody, let me know if you have any questions I can answer, and everyone have a good Thanksgiving later this week.

[Joe-SA]

Picking up on this AFP vs SMB setting info....I ran into some issues with some employees setting up Project Sharing with AFP when in the past I've had much better luck with SMB for many years.  I did a little research and found this article on Project Sharing..

https://blog.vectorworks.net/an-overview-of-project-sharing-in-vectorworks-software

Which contains a link to this forum post from 2016

Which contains this NOTE: of AFP deprecation at the top and a recommendation to only use SMB following MacOS 10.13 which is High Sierra released in 2017.

 

I also found this current Vectorworks University Course

https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/scorm/player.php?scoid=40&cm=103&currentorg=articulate_rise

Here item 28 in the Frequently Asked Questions reiterates that you should use SMB only for any MacOS 10.13 or later.

It includes a link to the same 2016 post above.

 

VW2023 Is not supported by MacOS10.15 Catalina or earlier.

VW2024 is not supported by MacOS11.0 Big Sur or earlier.

 

All of this being the case....why are we still being offered the ability to choose AFP protocols when setting up Project Sharing Files?

Should we at least be prompted that with any MacOS that has been released in the last 6 years it is recommended to use SMB Only and not AFP?    

 

Or

 

Does the 2016 deprecation of AFP need better explaining because none of what I found today is evident to unfamiliar VW users as they setup Project Files.   Some of us have been running AFP with VW2023 which has worked but generally it has not been a great experience.  Meanwhile I use Project Sharing via SMB nearly daily with VW2023 and rarely have any issues but I will say we have seen some sync issues that have shown up intermittently with both protocols.

 

It is still easy to find non-vectorworks sources for internet advice that suggest if you are running mac...AFP is the better choice.

Can anybody clarify this?  Seems to me the Project Sharing Setup could use some re-vamping to provide better guidance.  I'm curious what's in the works for VW2025.

 

For more context we are Dropbox for Business users with Project Files in a shared dropbox folder and Working Files stored locally.

Most of us are running MacOS Ventura.  Some may be still on Monterey.  Nobody is running Sonoma as far as I know.

 

I have not yet loaded VW2024 but I can only assume that nothing has changed in the Project Sharing Setup Dialog box in the latest version.