Vectorworks vs Rhino 3D vs Home Depot

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

A conversation with a valued colleague stuck with me.  Whether Rhino or Vectorworks could build a better Jet fighter was really irrelevant to every Vectorworks user, as we will never be challenged with that.  I doubt Rhino 3D will either.

What could be of great concern is a bathroom fixture at Home Depot that is not in Vectorworks library and the client wants to see it or the deal is dead.  Oddly coincidental, is the same tools used to build the body of a jet are the same as that bathroom fixture.

 

Below is a short tutorial on how to reengineer that shower head from online pictures using NURBS tools.

The working file is included below

SHOWER HEAD .vwx

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

@VIRTUALENVIRONS that's really useful thanks for posting

[mjm]

5 hours ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

A conversation with a valued colleague stuck with me.  Whether Rhino or Vectorworks could build a better Jet fighter was really irrelevant to every Vectorworks user, as we will never be challenged with that.  I doubt Rhino 3D will either.

What could be of great concern is a bathroom fixture at Home Depot that is not in Vectorworks library and the client wants to see it or the deal is dead.  Oddly coincidental, is the same tools used to build the body of a jet are the same as that bathroom fixture.

 

Below is a short tutorial on how to reengineer that shower head from online pictures using NURBS tools.

The working file is included below

SHOWER HEAD .vwx

 

 

 

 

 

Concise and very informative to this nurbs noob

[Jeff Prince]

@VIRTUALENVIRONS Where's the "vs Rhino" part?

 

Have you tried Subdivision modeling?  It's the perfect tool for this task.

It's also great for creating things from scratch when you don't have drawings to trace, it's a very sculptural process.

 

VWX on top, Rhino on bottom.

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

HI Jeff,

Nice work. I have never really played with subdivisions modelling.  Maybe you could do a tutorial on how you did this.  We need more of this.

 

regards....Paul

[Jeff Prince]

6 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

Maybe you could do a tutorial on how you did this.

Vectorworks University has you covered.  It’s the place for tutorials.

[Tom W.]

6 hours ago, jeff prince said:

@VIRTUALENVIRONS Where's the "vs Rhino" part?

 

Have you tried Subdivision modeling?  It's the perfect tool for this task.

It's also great for creating things from scratch when you don't have drawings to trace, it's a very sculptural process.

 

VWX on top, Rhino on bottom.

 

 

Jeff the grey bottom head was created using Subdivision on Rhino right? Would it be exactly the same using Subdivision on VW? I've never used Rhino.

[bcd]

It might just be me - but they all look like they're facing the wrong way.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Hi bcd.

If you look at the tutorial, the original online images are there.  Both methods have more or less created that object.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

7 hours ago, Tom W. said:

Jeff the grey bottom head was created using Subdivision on Rhino right?

I think this is made in Vectorworks.  Jeff can clarify when he comes online.  It looks like the bend tool was used as the profile curve is sharper.

Jeff brought up a good point in that my model had a flat on it.  The image below technically still has a flat,  but it is a million of an inch in diameter. 

Below this image is another one and that is why I tend to use NURBS curves.  I added a square into the mix for a finger hold of sorts.  The change was so quick, I. would not consider it workflow.

 

But, the takeaway here as I see it, is that both methods should  be considered one method and used in conjunction with each other to create the best possible result.

 

 

 

[Jeff Prince]

8 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

Jeff the grey bottom head was created using Subdivision on Rhino right? Would it be exactly the same using Subdivision on VW? I've never used Rhino.

Yes, done in Rhino.

It’s very similar, but Rhino has more primitives to start with an better editing controls to speed up the shaping.

 

I hadn’t used Rhino in over a decade.  Back then there was no SubD tool.  I downloaded the trial yesterday afternoon and made this shower head while figuring out the tool.

 

All of these softwares are similar enough that once you know the logic of creating geometry in one, you can fumble through the next fairly easily with some UI guidance (thanks YouTube and help menus).  The important differences between packages are usually revealed by the suite of tools for a particular task.  That’s where rhino does a better job than Vectorworks in regards to surface creation and manipulation… there are simply more tools in the toolbox for that kind of work.

[Tom W.]

25 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

Yes, done in Rhino.

It’s very similar, but Rhino has more primitives to start with an better editing controls to speed up the shaping.

 

I hadn’t used Rhino in over a decade.  Back then there was no SubD tool.  I downloaded the trial yesterday afternoon and made this shower head while figuring out the tool.

 

All of these softwares are similar enough that once you know the logic of creating geometry in one, you can fumble through the next fairly easily with some UI guidance (thanks YouTube and help menus).  The important differences between packages are usually revealed by the suite of tools for a particular task.  That’s where rhino does a better job than Vectorworks in regards to surface creation and manipulation… there are simply more tools in the toolbox for that kind of work.

 

So if one of your garden designs required a monumental shower head feature (🙂) would you model it using VW SubD tools or VW NURBS? I have tried SubD a few times + had limited success but if you're saying you'd regard SubD the better option in this case I will take the time to investigate further. Thanks

[Jeff Prince]

4 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

So if one of your garden designs required a monumental shower head feature (🙂) would you model it using VW SubD tools or VW NURBS? I have tried SubD a few times + had limited success but if you're saying you'd regard SubD the better option in this case I will take the time to investigate further. Thanks

 

I would probably just list it in specifications and have the contractor provide shop drawings 🙂

 

In all seriousness, I think SubD is the way to go with this kind of stuff.  You should treat yourself a few hours by watching the tutorial and playing with it a bit, I think you would enjoy the process.  It's a very liberating workflow for sculptural forms.

 

Here's the first thing I ever made with SubD.  1/2 that plane is a single object!

SubD is the future and the future is now.

 

 

[Tom W.]

5 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

 

I would probably just list it in specifications and have the contractor provide shop drawings 🙂

 

In all seriousness, I think SubD is the way to go with this kind of stuff.  You should treat yourself a few hours by watching the tutorial and playing with it a bit, I think you would enjoy the process.  It's a very liberating workflow for sculptural forms.

 

Here's the first thing I ever made with SubD.  1/2 that plane is a single object!

SubD is the future and the future is now.

 

 

 

Cheers Jeff I remember seeing that thread. Good stuff. And I've seen a few videos too but never had much need to model anything (one video was for a chair I believe, the other for a big pink teddy bear...🙂) - until now perhaps, if I take your advice. I will delve further. But also explore NURBS more too as it's clear I know very little about that either.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Hi Guys,

Well, you both know I am going to disagree with Jeff to some extent, but that is what the forum is for.  A lot of good information is now available on this thread, can't hope for more than that.

I believe what people do for a living drives their methodology.  I did play with subdivision surfaces many years ago, 2016 or when it became available.  Not to the extent that others have because it was not going to do what I needed.  I needed to make a series of objects like below, have the landing gear move, etc.  It wasn't going to be with subdivision surfaces.  According to Vectorworks it wasn't going to be with Vectorworks NURBS either......but here we are.

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by VIRTUALENVIRONS

[Jeff Prince]

12 hours ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

I believe what people do for a living drives their methodology.

 

That's the recipe for stagnation and sadness.

I look outside my disciple for inspiration every chance I get to keep things fresh.

 

I have used SubD twice now in my entire existence.  Once to do that stealth bomber linked earlier(Vectorworks) and now this showerhead (Rhino).

Clearly I am the utmost authority on the subject now 😉

 

I haven't used Rhino in over a decade and had to install the program and relearn the interface and tools I was interested in prior to taking on this showerhead.

Even with all that drama, it's so much easier and faster to model with SubD in Rhino than Vectorworks.  More options, more control, faster operations.  I find the same to be true with NURBS modeling, there's just more options in Rhino for surfacing.

 

12 hours ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

I did play with subdivision surfaces many years ago, 2016 or when it became available.  Not to the extent that others have because it was not going to do what I needed.

 

You need to do yourself a favor and take another look at this SubD workflow, it's really the NURBs killer when it comes to interactive shape making IMHO.

I suppose if you are starting with the answer and not actually designing, cross section lofting is OK...

...but it's just not as much fun as SubD sculpting, especially in Rhino 7.

 

Rhino even has a nice little animate along a path tool with some different rendering options.  Here's a video of making the shower head out of two SubD spheres and Bridging them to create a single continuous surface.  I'll have to record the handle sculpting again, forgot to restart the screen recording.

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

Great video Jeff thank you for posting. Perfect illustration of the questions I was asking re NURBS vs SubD + VW vs Rhino. Very helpful. Now you need to post one showing you attempting the same in VW 🙂

[zoomer]

2 hours ago, jeff prince said:

I did play with subdivision surfaces many years ago, 2016 or when it became available.

 

That was not the best release.

(I remember you could not even convert your own geometry to SubD and such things)

I think it took at least VW 2018+ until SubDs get to a useful state.

 

Now I think VW's SubD is pretty ok.

Just that I do not have much need for non-rectilinear geometries here 🙂

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

 

 

Hi Guys,

I view subdivision modelling as a tool in the 3D tool box, but they are very different tools.  NURBS are mathematically accurate.  Subdivision deform polygons and are approximations.  They are more intuitive and a new 3D user is going to find them easier than NURBS, which is good. Anything that starts the creative thinking is good.

 

The downside is the surface is not accurate with Subdivision.  This is not a problem for animators and being polygon based, the texture mapping works better.  But, if you need to machine something accurately, Subdivision won’t be your best option.  

 

I came across a product being released by Max 3D that somehow converts Subdivision back to NURBS, so CAD systems can use them.  The article was not very in depth and that is all I know.

 

The Toolbox. 

Below are two images, one made in 2022 with Rhino 7, one made with Vectorworks in 2015 using VW2015.  

 

Neither uses Subdivision.  There is a point where the two methods diverge.

 

 

 

[Jeff Prince]

40 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

NURBS are mathematically accurate.  Subdivision deform polygons and are approximations.

This is not true.

Both are equally accurate.  In fact, some softwares allow you to go back and forth between NuRBS and SubD.  Think of SubD as parametric objects defined by linked NURBS whose resolution can be changed on the fly.  That is why SubD is so powerful, especially when developing a design concept from scratch.  You need to try this so you understand the massive advantages clearly illustrated in my video.

 

You can 3D print or machine a physical object from a SubD representation and it will be equally accurate to the same surface generated by NURBS.

 

So… vs Rhino eh?

 

In your last post with the two cars….

How do you know the Rhino car was mot made, at least in part, with SubD?

 

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by jeff prince

[Jeff Prince]

5 hours ago, zoomer said:

 

That was not the best release.

(I remember you could not even convert your own geometry to SubD and such things)

I think it took at least VW 2018+ until SubDs get to a useful state.

 

Now I think VW's SubD is pretty ok.

Just that I do not have much need for non-rectilinear geometries here 🙂

Just for the record, you attributed Virtual’s comment to me.  He’s the one who tried it years ago 🙂

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

HI Jeff,

Below is taken from Rhino 3D's website.  Note I have highlighted precision.   But, I could be wrong about precision of Subd in Rhino, but in the past, polygon based geometry had to be smoothed over for machining reducing accuracy.

 

"nurbs is a great tool for precision objects, these can include anything from car bodies to architecture and anything in between."

"Subd is best used for non precision things that have an organic or sculpted feel"

 

I am very glad you asked "how do I know".   The reason I chose that particular Rhino car is that it has a video showing how it was done..  You won't believe this, but I have a video also.  The two images below show another car modelled in Vectorworks in 2016.

 

The Rhino Tutorial shows the car being built in various stages and it about seven minutes long.  The other video shows the Vectorworks car being completely built from start to finish in twenty minutes.  Both videos are below the image.

 

NOTE: The Rhino car is a re-engineering.  He used the same method we did for the Shower head.

 

 

 

Vectorworks Car

 

 

Rhino Car video

 

 

 

 

[Jeff Prince]

8 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

nurbs is a great tool for precision objects, these can include anything from car bodies to architecture and anything in between."

"Subd is best used for non precision things that have an organic or sculpted feel"

 

/\ That’s a forum post and an opinion, not an official position of the company…

 

The full discussion and quote can be found here:

https://discourse.mcneel.com/t/when-to-use-nurbs-vs-subd/125395
 

thanks for sharing the Rhino car video.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

This from Rhino, but still, they don't actually say they are as accurate as NURBS, but If not today then tomorrow they will be.  Time marches on.

 

Rhino SubD objects are high-precision Catmull-Clark subdivision surfaces. They can have creases, sharp or smooth corners, and holes. The Rhino SubD object is designed to quickly model and edit complex organic shapes.

Unlike traditional mesh-based SubD implementations, Rhino SubD objects are NOT a subdivided mesh object.

The Rhino SubD user experience will be the same as Rhino NURBS and mesh object experience. There will also be new SubD modeling and editing tools based on traditional techniques.

Rhino SubD surfaces are predictable, measurable, and manufacturable. They can be converted to either high-quality NURBS or mesh (quads or triangles) objects when needed.

[Jeff Prince]

 

46 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

This from Rhino, but still, they don't actually say they are as accurate as NURBS

 

This video is probably the best I watched for explaining things and showing results in a fairly clear way.

Check it out and you will see that the real magic is rapid shape development with SubD and then adding features with NURBS and Boolean operations.  The combo approach leverages the best of all worlds to get to the finish line.  Vectorworks does similar work with SubD and NURBS, it's just the VWX toolbox is missing a few of the fancy tools in found in Rhino.