Brick Banding and Window Head and Sill Detail

[Michael Siggers]

Hi

 

I'm looking for some advice on creating a particular detail using Vectorworks Architect, concerning Brick Bands, Window Head and Sill, and Corner details.

 

A little bit of background first. I am a freelance Architectural Technician and have been using Sketchup Pro for what seems like since the year dot. I undertake work for both the Commercial and Domestic sectors. The domestic sector is concerned mainly with new Extensions and remodelling of Properties. Both the Commercial and Domestic sides involve Planning Submissions and Building Control approval.

 

I have finally taken the dive and decided to use Vectorworks Architectural for my work, as it seems to offer a lot more than Sketchup Pro, is more powerful, and still talks with Lumion, which I use for Renderings. The idea is to use it in parallel with Sketchup Pro so that I can get up to speed before I stop using Sketchup.

 

As such, I have started by trying to recreate a Project I have completed in Sketchup to familiarise myself with the software.

 

So, here is the query. I have attached a couple of images from this project which shows extracts from the elevations created in Sketchup Pro, which feature brick banding and Head and Sill Soldier brick courses. For all of my research, Googling, watching many Youtube videos, Vectorworks Tutorials etc., I can not seem to find a way to achieve this in Vectorworks. In Sketchup, the outer leaf of the wall was created as a Component and then edited to add the lines on to separate the surfaces, which could then have a separate texture applied to the areas as required.

 

I am figuring that I can not achieve this with the Wall Tool. (The wall tool is great and will save me time when producing the drawings for Building Control). I thought maybe I could just create the outer leaf as a solid, similar to Sketchup, but I can not find a way to divide the surface and apply different textures to the areas that require them.

 

Anyway, any help, thoughts, and advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Mike

[Christiaan]

Hi Michael, welcome to Vectorworks and the forum.

 

Yeah that's a tough one. If it was just the lintels I'd tell you to model them and insert them into the wall as a symbol.

 

But continuous banding like that, up to the corners of walls, is not something VW easily handles as part of the solid model. 

 

One way to approach it would be a similar workflow to Sketchup. You'd draw polygons onto the face of the walls, extrude them by 0.5 mm and then apply a texture to them. If you subsequently edit/move the walls you will need to manually update these objects separately.

[Christiaan]

There is also a feature in VW that would allow you to incorporate these extrudes into the wall (AEC > Create Wall Projection/Recess...), so that they would stay with the wall if you move the wall, but the unfortunate limitation of this feature ever since its inception is that you can't go all the way to the corner with them.

[shorter]

5 hours ago, Christiaan said:

Hi Michael, welcome to Vectorworks and the forum.

 

Yeah that's a tough one. If it was just the lintels I'd tell you to model them and insert them into the wall as a symbol.

 

But continuous banding like that, up to the corners of walls, is not something VW easily handles as part of the solid model. 

 

One way to approach it would be a similar workflow to Sketchup. You'd draw polygons onto the face of the walls, extrude them by 0.5 mm and then apply a texture to them. If you subsequently edit/move the walls you will need to manually update these objects separately.

 

This is often how we see them modelled in other BIM software, i.e. as appliqué.  Same with rustication.

Edited February 27, 2023 by shorter

[Kevin K]

@Michael Siggers Here are a few thoughts, including what Christiaan had mentioned....

1) IF you use Windoor (which is available as a third party install) window objects, as opposed to the native VW windows...(unless they have changed things in V2023) it will allow you to created a brick lintel, by configuring just a 'head' trim object and an 'apron' object which will give you a brick band above the window and also below @ the sill area....just make the thickness very thin, so it barely protrude beyond the wall face material. This can quickly be configured for ALL your windows, relating to the top and bottom brick bands.

Check the Windoor configuration below:

 

 

 

2) Regarding the continuous brick banding, around the entire structure....really quick and easy to simply use for example the double line polygon tool, again set to a distance of like 4mm or so, and extrude it the width of a brick, so it protrudes a bit beyond the wall face. that will work great...and quick.

 

3) Lastly...for the pesky corner bricks, like shown in your example....I think really just making a couple symbols for the shapes and again extruding the shape to go just beyond the wall face,,,it will do the trick without a lot of work  In my example, the structure has a low floor and an upper floor, so you would need to configure the two symbols accordingly, unless you wanted to have one symbol going all the way up two floor levels, etc.  Sort of depends on your Project.related to the heights of the walls....and once you have two symbols...you can quickly mirror them to each corner ! 🙂

 

I attached a version 2022 file so you can sort of see what I had done to facilitate all this..Good news too, is that you can recycle the symbols for other projects, just perhaps changing the textures, etc.

1512171160_BRICKTEST2022.vwx

[Tom W.]

5 hours ago, Christiaan said:

One way to approach it would be a similar workflow to Sketchup. You'd draw polygons onto the face of the walls, extrude them by 0.5 mm and then apply a texture to them. If you subsequently edit/move the walls you will need to manually update these objects separately.

 

This is exactly how I do it. Albeit using NURBS Surfaces rather than Extrudes:

 

[Christiaan]

15 hours ago, Tom W. said:

This is exactly how I do it. Albeit using NURBS Surfaces rather than Extrudes:

NURBS Surface is smarter, thanks for that tip. Presumably then you don't get a thick line as you might in a render using extrudes.

[Michael Siggers]

Many thanks for the answers. Very much appreciated.

 

Looks great on the examples provided, so that is what I will do.

 

............ Once I can sort out the Windows and Doors. Having serious issues with them, as shown in the attached.

 

1. The Layout on the Left is just the Plan View from the Model. I noticed the Missing Glass in the window. I tried changing Detail level to high but was still missing. The Top Window next to the External Double doors is a Vectorworks window modified to be 1200 x 1200 with a Top Light on the right side as looking externally. The Glass in the Right side is a Fixed Leaf. The window on the bottom, next to the Single External Door is a Windoor Window, but there seems to be no options to make it a standard Casement window with a top opening light on one side, similar to what is shown on the Front Elevation, but a 2 light window rather than 3 Light.
2. The Front Elevation is shown in the middle. This shows the Windoor Window, which I can not make look like the window on the First Floor.
3. The Plan Section on the right was created by Creating a Section from the Front Elevation. I wanted to see if the windows showed correctly. This has infact made it worse. The window at the top has moved outwards. The Front Entrance Door at the bottom shows some double lines, presumably the panel. As for the Internal Door, no idea what is going on here. The internal door in the left Plan is incorrect anyway, as I can not seem to get it to line up with the wall finish correctly.

So, struggling really and not sure what to do. I really want to get on with this Software, but at the moment I feel like I am fighting a losing battle.

 

For the windows, I am wondering whether I need to go down the route of modelling my own windows and create Symbols for a Standard Set, adding to this over time. Could be a pain as a lot of properties I survey are Victorian, so not exactly Standard Windows.

 

Any thoughts and suggestion would be most welcome.

 

Mike

[Christiaan]

8 hours ago, Michael Siggers said:

So, struggling really and not sure what to do. I really want to get on with this Software, but at the moment I feel like I am fighting a losing battle.

Two things will fix that: time and this forum. VW is powerful but can be overly flexible, meaning there are many variables. It gets easier as you settle on a workflow and build up a library of objects.

 

Feel free to attach the file so we can take a look. That window issue sounds a little buggy.

 

Yes to building up a library of your own windows, but create them using the Window object (by saving 'Styles'), not as freeform modelled Symbols. The plugin object will save you a lot of work over time.

[Michael Siggers]

Thank you @Christiaan

 

One of the Issues with the Window Tool is the Sill. It seems to place it incorrectly and lines it up with the internal face of the wall, and not the internal face of the window frame. The Windows shown in the previous attachment were created using the Window Tool, but it seems to miss glass off and I can not seem to change the Glazing to Double Glazed.

 

I do already have a library of 3D windows that I have created over time in Sketchup Pro, based mainly on Jeld Wen Windows, which covers most of the Window Styles I use. Any bespoke windows can be created as required.

 

Mike

[Michael Siggers]

Hi @Christiaan

 

File Attached

 

This is work in progress practice work based on a project already completed for a Client. Thought I would try and recreate it in Vectorworks to learn.

 

Mike

1132810628_7TheSycamores.vwx

[Michael Siggers]

Just before I crack on with some work.......

 

Attached is a screen shot, showing the Window Settings.

 

I can not for the life of me get the Window Sill to line with the back edge of the Window Frame. Think of a Standard uPVC Window. Even though the 3D illustration shows the Sill as aligning with the Window Frame. Is this because the Window Tool is set up for non UK windows I wonder?

 

This also shows the missing glass in the Layout as well as in the Preview in the Window Tool.

 

Mike

[Christiaan]

Okay, so the issue with window glazing not showing can be resolved this way:

1. Select window and go to Settings > General > Custom Configuration Options...

2. Cycle through to select the relevant sash, reduce height to say 500 so that you can see both panels again

3. Now cycle through again to highlight the upper half and then set that to 950 instead

 

It's something weird to do with the way VW is choosing to get the data it needs for the 2D representation.

[Christiaan]

14 minutes ago, Michael Siggers said:

I can not for the life of me get the Window Sill to line with the back edge of the Window Frame. Think of a Standard uPVC Window. Even though the 3D illustration shows the Sill as aligning with the Window Frame. Is this because the Window Tool is set up for non UK windows I wonder?

I would pretend you never saw the Sill feature in the Window tool. It was originally designed for traditional thin stud frame walls and has no bearing on modern construction.

 

I have a enhancement request in for this: 
https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49479-window-sill-improvements/

 

It's also under 'active research' on the Roadmap:

https://www.vectorworks.net/en-US/public-roadmap?url=door-threshold-window-sill

 

A better way to do it is to model the sills as Symbols, as attached.

example.vwx

[Michael Siggers]

Thankyou @Christiaan

 

That worked for the Glazed and it is now showing.

 

Mike

[Christiaan]

No problem. I'm going submit a bug for that because it's very unintuitive.

[Michael Siggers]

4 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

I would pretend you never saw the Sill feature in the Window tool. It was originally designed for traditional thin stud frame walls and has no bearing on modern construction.

 

I have a enhancement request in for this: 
https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49479-window-sill-improvements/

 

It's also under 'active research' on the Roadmap:

https://www.vectorworks.net/en-US/public-roadmap?url=door-threshold-window-sill

 

A better way to do it is to model the sills as Symbols, as attached.

example.vwx

That's great. Thank you so much.

 

I feel like I'm getting there..... slowly but surely.

 

Mike

 

 

[Tom W.]

17 minutes ago, Michael Siggers said:

I can not for the life of me get the Window Sill to line with the back edge of the Window Frame. Think of a Standard uPVC Window. Even though the 3D illustration shows the Sill as aligning with the Window Frame. Is this because the Window Tool is set up for non UK windows I wonder?

 

Unlike the VW Window the WinDoor sill does stop at the back of the frame. However there are other things which work against WinDoor - i.e. things you can do in VW that WinDoor can't do - so it's not really a solution, just an observation. I believe improvements to the VW sill are being worked on so fingers crossed they come before too long...

[Michael Siggers]

Thank you everyone

 

Calling it a day on Vectorworks for today. Need to get on with some work.

 

I started getting bogged down in why I can only get the Internal Finish to wrap into the opening on one side, and not the head, sill or left side, (as looking from the inside), unlike the example which @Christiaansent me which wraps into the opening on all sides.

 

Given up for the day as I need to be working.

 

Mike

[Christiaan]

31 minutes ago, Michael Siggers said:

I started getting bogged down in why I can only get the Internal Finish to wrap into the opening on one side, and not the head, sill or left side

Wall wrapping is quite complex because there are many different relationships going on, so there are a few places where you can trip on this. Upload the file where you've got it to and I'll show you.

[line-weight]

@Michael Siggers it's worth being aware that the window tool is one of the absolute worst bits of Vectorworks. As you'll already have gathered, sills in particular are a complete disaster and basically don't work, for most scenarios.

 

The rest of the window tool will get you close-ish to something like what you want, but only really suitable for small scale representations. It's no good at all for anything like a construction detail; the way it puts windows together has little to do with how windows are actually made. Plus, many of the settings are unintuitive and it doesn't help (for us in the UK at least) that it uses north american terminology for most of the parts.

 

I usually use the VW windows only at early stages of a project. Once I am doing construction details I very often end up building the windows from scratch myself, because leaving the VW ones on large scale construction drawings is just embarrassing.

 

We are hoping that some day soon, the window (and door) tool will be completely overhauled. In the meantime, the "windoor" tool is provided as a kind of stopgap alternative, but it has its own, different limitations.

 

NB that you can create window-less window openings with the window tool - then insert your own custom drawn windows into these.

[Michael Siggers]

Found it after much digging around 😉

 

Now wrapping on all 4 sides.

 

Mike

[line-weight]

By the way an alternative approach for those horizontal brick bands (but not the corner details) is to used stacked walls, with a different wall type for the bands, but probably wouldn't actually save you work compared to the methods already suggested.

[Michael Siggers]

1 minute ago, line-weight said:

@Michael Siggers it's worth being aware that the window tool is one of the absolute worst bits of Vectorworks. As you'll already have gathered, sills in particular are a complete disaster and basically don't work, for most scenarios.

 

The rest of the window tool will get you close-ish to something like what you want, but only really suitable for small scale representations. It's no good at all for anything like a construction detail; the way it puts windows together has little to do with how windows are actually made. Plus, many of the settings are unintuitive and it doesn't help (for us in the UK at least) that it uses north american terminology for most of the parts.

 

I usually use the VW windows only at early stages of a project. Once I am doing construction details I very often end up building the windows from scratch myself, because leaving the VW ones on large scale construction drawings is just embarrassing.

 

We are hoping that some day soon, the window (and door) tool will be completely overhauled. In the meantime, the "windoor" tool is provided as a kind of stopgap alternative, but it has its own, different limitations.

 

NB that you can create window-less window openings with the window tool - then insert your own custom drawn windows into these.

Brilliant! Thank you @line-weight

 

That is what I was thinking and sounds like the perfect approach.

 

Useful to know about windowless openings as you've pre-empted the next thing I need to look at 😉

 

Mike

[Michael Siggers]

1 minute ago, line-weight said:

By the way an alternative approach for those horizontal brick bands (but not the corner details) is to used stacked walls, with a different wall type for the bands, but probably wouldn't actually save you work compared to the methods already suggested.

I did wonder about that as a possibility. I may try that when their is only Brick banding.

 

Mike