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Yoginathaswami

Vectorworks 2011 ?Release note

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The whole point of BIM is not to do things more than once. I find the method advised for applying 3D hatches to walls, Non-BIM. If the wall changes, then I have to remember to change the polygon representing the hatch to that wall. Why the double work?

The wall should have had the hatch applied directly to it.

This sort of thing really really bugs me. Somebody needs to be saying no to these sorts of interface decisions.

Edit: changed my mind: http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=145006Post145006

Edited by Christiaan

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...this is potentially the first version of VW I'm willing to use to transition our practice to a full 3D workflow.

I'd be very interested to hear your experience with this.

Reading through the 'What's New' I can see that a lot of the selling points relate to BIM capabilities. For the 2D workflow, scaleable symbols and perfect preview text seem to be the biggies (big enough for the upgrade?).

Our reservations about BIM are twofold...the first one is WHY? when it looks like a lot more effort to get your 2D drawings out the other end (and the client doesn't always want the 3D model...or at least want to pay for it). The second is that the BIM tools in VW just don't look like our buildings....tight urban sites in the UK have funny stairs, funny roofs, funny shaped panels of curtain wall...etc etc. I just don't think we could model our buildings with the VW BIM tools in a way which would produce reliable 2D drawings at the other end.

We only use one of the PIOs....the door tool...mainly because it is more parametric than using symbols. But at least as of version 2008, the door tool was still terrible...you can't even specify a door by its structural opening, which is the main way we specify door sizes in the UK. I've no idea whether this has been changed in 2011?

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...this is potentially the first version of VW I'm willing to use to transition our practice to a full 3D workflow.

I'd be very interested to hear your experience with this.

Our reservations about BIM are twofold...the first one is WHY? when it looks like a lot more effort to get your 2D drawings out the other end (and the client doesn't always want the 3D model...or at least want to pay for it). The second is that the BIM tools in VW just don't look like our buildings....tight urban sites in the UK have funny stairs, funny roofs, funny shaped panels of curtain wall...etc etc. I just don't think we could model our buildings with the VW BIM tools in a way which would produce reliable 2D drawings at the other end.

I've just done my first real all 3D work flow in ArchiCAD and after an initial frustrating and intensive couple of days it now works quite well. Live Sections/elevations work OK however some 2D 'fixing' is needed. (Nothing superior to VW in any case)

Things that strike me compared to VW are:

- One is bound to certain presentation defaults that don't have options for local building standards (and very few customization possibilities)

- Believe it or not but move one wall and you (still) have to connect all other walls to it again!

- Even thought the PIOs work fairly well, there are still many defaults that don't fit our building standard or are missing completely! Windows and doors work well stairs and other PIOs have many flaws still! (Not even considering slabs :))

Having seen the new 2011 features I think VW actually beats ArchiCAD in drafting, editing and drawing coordination (which I previously found to be the strengths of ArchiCAD over VW) and not only in 3D modeling, rendering and flexibility.

Initially I would say good work NNA, that's the spirit (again).

Edited by Vincent C

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The whole point of BIM is not to do things more than once. I find the method advised for applying 3D hatches to walls, Non-BIM. If the wall changes, then I have to remember to change the polygon representing the hatch to that wall. Why the double work?

The wall should have had the hatch applied directly to it.

This sort of thing really really bugs me. Somebody needs to be saying no to these sorts of interface decisions.

I think there is nothing wrong with the feature, it's actually quite good, the mistake was showing it being applied to walls.......

Lets just put it on the wish list again guys, this release proves that they are listening to us me thinks!

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I think this release is superior in many things. It's obvious the consistency of snapping in 3d, with only one cursor (a wish from many). The wall tool has is components in 3d that relates with slabs components (also in 3d). All objects are 3d and maintain it's attributes (can't stop imagine the futures that this will bring).

I see many wishes that were listened and accomplished in this update. Others are easily deducible (Parasolid is emerging)... in future releases. Is good to see the level of compromise that Nemetschek Vectorworks has put in this release. I think Vectorworks is right on track.

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I think there is nothing wrong with the feature, it's actually quite good, the mistake was showing it being applied to walls.......

The mistake is that it's designed from an engineer's point of view: how cool that we can use 2D hatches in 3D, and, look, we can apply them to walls. A designer would have said, yes, that?s cool, but if we want to apply hatches to walls what's the best way to do that from the user's point of view? Only after they'd answered this and implemented it would have the designer shipped the product.

Edit: changed my mind: http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=145006Post145006

Edited by Christiaan

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A designer would have said, yes, that?s cool, but if we want to apply hatches to walls what's the best way to do that from the user's point of view? Only after they'd answered this and implemented it would have the designer shipped the product.

Very true C. but it seems that the engineers at NNA need us (the designers) to come with this type of feed back...so keep posting wish list items, 'unfortunately' this seems to be the way it works.

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I note that while images show 3d dimensions, 3d dimensioning is not mentioned as a new feature; admittedly, I am known as a sceptic, but this makes me suspicious that there is some half-way house involved. Please someone prove me wrong...

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Can we in VW 2011 import ArchiCAD

Any answers on this yet?

I guess Ozzie, a better way would be for us all to log into Graphisofts forum and start bugging them for a VW import/export capability, perhaps their r&d department have more funds than NNAs for developing this type of interoperability!?

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Can we in VW 2011 import ArchiCAD

Any answers on this yet?

I guess Ozzie, a better way would be for us all to log into Graphisofts forum and start bugging them for a VW import/export capability, perhaps their r&d department have more funds than NNAs for developing this type of interoperability!?

3D dims - possible on working planes

no archicad import ...

VW 2011 - screenshot

... + wall reshape tool old issue - 1mm step

not solved

Edited by starling75

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Very true C. but it seems that the engineers at NNA need us (the designers) to come with this type of feed back...so keep posting wish list items, 'unfortunately' this seems to be the way it works.

The problem I see with this is three-fold. This isn't what we pay NV for. We're not software UI designers, we're users. And this just isn't the sort of thing that should be left to user feedback after the fact; there are perfectly good UI designers in the world who could be given the authority to stop this sort of thing shipping in the first place. It's just a matter of priorities and culture.

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I've just done my first real all 3D work flow in ArchiCAD ... Believe it or not but move one wall and you (still) have to connect all other walls to it again!

Are you sure about this?

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I'd be very interested to hear your experience with this.

Well I did say potentially. And we still need to get new machines yet; no date on that yet unfortunately.

Our reservations about BIM are twofold...the first one is WHY?

Two main reasons really. One, better information output, due to using one source of information (the model). Two, it's more enjoyable (modelling is fun).

when it looks like a lot more effort to get your 2D drawings out the other end (and the client doesn't always want the 3D model...or at least want to pay for it).

Primarily the advantage isn't 3D output but 2D output (at least until big BIM is an industry standard). That is, plans, sections, elevations and schedules would be produced from a single source of information, the model. And details would be derived from live sections of the model. Like you say though, it will need to be less effort, not more, for it to work.

The second is that the BIM tools in VW just don't look like our buildings....tight urban sites in the UK have funny stairs, funny roofs, funny shaped panels of curtain wall...etc etc. I just don't think we could model our buildings with the VW BIM tools in a way which would produce reliable 2D drawings at the other end.

This is definitely still a potential problem. We'll only know once we've had a play. Peter Besley and I and looking to start a UK user group in part to see if we can try to deal with these sorts of issues in a more influential way (I'll keep you posted).

you can't even specify a door by its structural opening, which is the main way we specify door sizes in the UK. I've no idea whether this has been changed in 2011?

Yes it's things like this that can stop one in their tracks.

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Vincent

ArchiCAD import

BIM

Interoperability

Amazes me we get all of these improvements which are really cool and will be added to into the future through in part Wish List Items, Vectorworks engineers and of course the incessant squeaking wheel

But does he get what he wants anyway?

Parent company owns Vectorworks, All Plan, ArchiCAD, C4D, etc, etc, etc

But can we import ArchiCAD?

Is it just too hard or WHAT is the reason?

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Oh definitely, this is not something I just discovered doing 3D, it was just something I wanted to mention to show that VW is (far) more intuitive in some regards than ArchiCAD (I really like the new slab tool, imagine the time saved by using the slab tool and colinear constraints (and elimination of possible mistakes when editing plans)!

My workflow now changing an elevators dimensions in a 5 story building in ArchiCAD:

Story 1: Change foundationslab, move elevatorwalls and manually join.

Story 2: Change ceiling slab, change floor slab move elevator walls and join manually

Story 3: ditto

Story 4: ditto

Story 5: as above plus change insolation slab

Change roof

Workflow VW:

Move elevator walls

Change roof

done! :)

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Vincent

But can we import ArchiCAD?

Is it just too hard or WHAT is the reason?

I don't think it matters who owns who, I think it is either hard or both hard and time consuming.

As far as I know (outside of DWG import/export between products) only ArchiCAD can import/export .dgn files (Microstation), however I believe that compatibility may have come from the Microstation side (they are sure to have the largest budget for r&d....)

If it was easy IFC would have come MUCH further than it has at present (btw I believe it was Microstation that had a very large part to play in the birth, development and marketing of IFC in the firstplace....

Edited by Vincent C

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Bohdan, that link doesn't work for me I'm denied entry....?

Sorry Vincent I have forgotten to unlock the album ..

Now it should work.

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Renderworks 2011's indirect lighting calculations are adaptive, which means you only have to set the number of bounces and the desired quality and it refines the lighting to the quality you desire.

This feature alone eliminates a lot of setup time and effort that was required with the radiosity render modes in 2010 and earlier.

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Renderworks 2011's indirect lighting calculations are adaptive, which means you only have to set the number of bounces and the desired quality and it refines the lighting to the quality you desire.

This feature alone eliminates a lot of setup time and effort that was required with the radiosity render modes in 2010 and earlier.

Thanks Dave, would be nice to have one or more unbiased options and the ability to bounce the light 1... 2 .. 300 times + ability to select number of threads dedicated to render engine.

Now it uses all threads available.

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The path to unbiased rendering engines is to take the VW model to C4D. The sky's the limit there - plug-ins are available for Maxwell, fryrender, indigo renderer, etc.

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I don't think it matters who owns who, I think it is either hard or both hard and time consuming.

Yes. Vectorworks, ArchiCad, Revit et. al. all have different "schemas" (collections of parameters) to describe our native objects. Translations of one native schema to another native schema is not only hard, it is, frankly, very unlikely to ever "live up" to user expectations. Just look at DWG, a relatively simple schema, and how few software apps have anything approaching round-tripping for that.

If it was easy IFC would have come MUCH further than it has at present

In its current incarnation, IFC does not try to support parametric descriptions of objects. It delivers geometry, semantic typing, and static data attached to objects (think 3D symbol with a really complex record format attached.) But really, this limited approach can be looked at as a strength also. If all you have is data-rich geometry, and you can incorporate it accurately in your project, then that is a workflow that can work very well for consultant coordination, and it doesn't matter in whose program the IFC data originates. I can use Vectorworks, my structural guy can use Scia Engineer, my HVAC guy can use DDS-CAD, and as long as I can coordinate their assemblies into my project (and make space for them, check for clashes, etc.) then I'm happy. I don't need to, nor do I want to, edit their work as native BIM objects.

BTW, I think the IFC in Vectorworks 2011 is (by far) the best we've ever shipped, and can hold its own with just about anybody.

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