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michaelk

Origin Moves

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Currently, when you move the origin, changing the X and Y position of the origin, the Z value of the origin changes the same distance and direction as the change in the Y value. Even in Top/Plan view.

This makes changing the origin very dangerous, when it could be a very useful tool.

I'd like to see the origin moveable in 3 dimensions.

michaelk

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Michaelk can you please post some images of what you are seeing. I'm certainly not seeing anything like what you are describing, and never have done.

Moving the 2D origin only moves the 2D origin in Top/Plan View. The 3D origin never moves. If you make the Grid visible you can see this by toggling back and forward between Top/plan View and Plan View (use the 1 and 5 keys on the numeric keypad).

It is possible to temporarily move the 3D working plane origin (and orientation) using the Working Plane tool, but that is quite different.

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Hi Michael,

???I have not seen this. Could you post a file that shows this and outline the steps you used to see the shift in Z?

???In developing Reshaper I do extensive testing of 3D objects in 3D space; on Design Layers, in Symbols, in Groups and other container objects, all with and without a shifted origin. In all that time I have not seen the Z value move with respect to an origin shift. If it is happening, I would love to see a file that shows this.

???When you say the Z value moves, are you referring to the coordinates reported along the bottom of the drawing window when you hover your 2D or 3D cursor over an object? Or, are you using the OIP to report XYZ values? The data display bar at the bottom of the drawing window and the Floating Data Bar do not show origin shifts in 3D views. It's very confusing, and I consider it a bug, but it's been that way "forever". The OIP, when it does show position, shows the origin shift in a fashion more consistent with the user's expectations. On the other hand, Reshaper shows everything you want to see, the way you want to see it. (Couldn't resist.)

???To test coordinates and displayed readouts, I suggest placing 3D Loci at known points and use them to gauge where things are.

???As to your wish, it's a popular one.

Raymond

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I just noticed the same behavior. Attached is a fresh file with the following steps:

1. Created 4"(102mm) x 4" (102mm)x 4"(102mm) Extruded Rectangle, center at grid origin in plan, bottom at Z=0

2. Moved grid origin (plan view only) by X=-1 1/2 , Y= +1 1/2

3. Cube bottom is now at Z=-1 1/2

4. "Uh-oh". Is it time for bug submit?

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Hmmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.

Bug report submitted. Maybe Michaelk can help out?

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The problem is that Michael and Gytis are reading the origin from the Rulers on the top and the left hand side of the drawing window (see image below), and thus thinking that this is showing the objects location in relation to the origin in a 3D view

The Rulers only relate to the origin in Top/Plan View. When you move the 2D origin the Rulers move with it. The 3D Origin remains where it was. This can be seen quite clearly by the pink grid axes in the attached image. In all 3D views the Rulers have no relationship to the 3D origin. This will be more obvious if you switch to an isometric view.

The 3D origin is the absolute origin for the file and can never be moved, which is why you end up with this apparent error. Its just an oddity that you have to get used to.

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The 3D origin is the absolute origin for the file and can never be moved, which is why you end up with this apparent error. Its just an oddity that you have to get used to.

Thanks Mike and Raymond for explaining our error. Do I ever feel silly. I can't believe I only recently (mis)understood the misleading rulers....and thought I had checked locations with 3D loci, but must have been rushing too much.

Will be un-bug submitting. :blush:

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Do I ever feel silly. I can't believe I only recently (mis)understood the misleading rulers....and thought I had checked locations with 3D loci, but must have been rushing too much.

:) Don't worry Gytis, We've all been there. Only the resident Genii avoid the head on collision with VW's foibles. Forum Paramedics Mike, Raymond and Pat often step in to help avoid further injury and aid recovery.

:crazy:

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Wow.

Thanks for all the input, everyone.

I think you're right, Mike. I was responding to the left ruler. Back in the days of VW9 and VW10 I used to change the origin a lot and confused myself (not hard to do) when working in 3D. So I adjusted my workflow to better manage use of the default origin.

Now all my work is in 3D and I find the coincidental accuracy of the left ruler in front, right, left, and back views helpful and reassuring.

Just to make sure I understand:

In, say, front view the X ruler is correct, but the y ruler doesn't change to a z ruler.

In left or right views the the top ruler doesn't become a y ruler.

It's just a special case that before the origin is moved the y and z rulers line up in front, left, right, and back views.

I'm just going to keep on not moving the origin.

Maybe what I should put on the wish list is "Smart Rulers" - rulers that become the appropriate axis rulers in top, bottom, left, right, front and back views and go away on all other views....

Thanks, everyone.

michaelk

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When you move the 2D origin the Rulers move with it. The 3D Origin remains where it was.
Hi Mike,

???I think the second sentence is not entirely true, but depends on what you use as your basis of reference. The problem is that there are too many bases that conflict with each other; Rulers, Data Bar / Floating Data Bar, OIP, Pink Drawing Grid; and no way to force them to be consistent. This is a major shortcoming in the User Interface. An option to align them, to show or hide the shift, would be a huge step forward in the "Ease Of Use" category.

???The OIP does show an origin shift in 3D views, but not for every 3D object. Check out 3D Polygons and use the OIP to investigate the coordinates of the vertices; or place a Sphere, or 3D Symbol, in a drawing and the OIP will report its center with the origin shift in all views. The X & Y values show the shift, while the Z value remains fixed.

???This is the philosophy I have taken with Reshaper, to show the XY origin shift in all views, as it is what the user is most likely expecting to see. Additionally, Reshaper also reports 2D & 3D positions side by side, allowing the user to work in the reference frame that is most meaningful at the time. Keeping it consistent was one of the hardest things I have ever achieved.

Raymond

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Your right you know Raymond. No wonder users get confused and end up making erroneous conclusions (including me).

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Would it help if the origin was 3D?

???I think it would help a lot of people if the User Origin was completely definable as an XYZ offset from the Absolute Origin. But, more than that, if all the readouts (OIP, DataBar, Floating DataBar, Rulers) showed the same coordinates it would make huge difference in how people perceived working in 3D with VW. Being able to select whether the display showed Absolute or User coordinates would be icing on the cake, but this is all just my opinion.

Raymond

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The user origin is a source of too many problems. Let's just delete them and have the absolute origin. Then there will be no more problems.

I just wonder why you should move the user origin? Just begin your drawing at the absolute one.

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Oh, please no.

Hi Dworks, this might be a nice solution for independent 3D models, but as soon as your work is used by others, it might be wise to have a central reference. That reference point may not lie within your "paper". Moving the model to the appropriate position, far away from the Internal Origin, might break your RenderWorks, as I found lately.

I don't use rulers myself, they are only useful in 2D, in 3D they don't reflect the proper position anyway, especially not when you are in a non-perpendicular view. More importantly, to give myself a firm grip on what I am doing in 3D (or 2D for that matter) I bought myself a copy of Reshaper (Thank you, Raymond!!) It is an absolute "must have".

I started an article about the origin, you can find it here: (please give it a few second to open)

Absolute Origin

It has already grown into a large piece with many contributions from others.

Regards,

Gerard

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Hi Michael,

???Yes, there is. My website is quite lacking, but the Reshaper software is up to snuff with VW 2009. If you want to try a DEMO, send me the last 6 digits of your VW Serial Number and I'll send you the software and a KEY. It's free for 30 days. It will make positioning of 3D objects quite easy, compared to the confusion you are probably having.

Raymond

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Reshaper is a valuable tool for me, especially since Raymond built in the ability to have angles displayed as azimuth.

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Reshaper.

Definitely the Brightest Tool in the Box. Any Box!

Also, Raymond keeps it in continuous evolution and listens well to it's users.

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