Window with symbol: inconsistent behaviour in Horizontal Section Viewport

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I've been trying to establish a robust way of getting windows that use a custom symbol to display as I want in Horizontal Section Viewports.

 

Basically I want to have HSVs with "display 2d components" turned on but I want my window objects to be shown in section, as in a real section through the window geometry, not a 2d component representation.

 

My initial hope was that if the window symbol had no "top or bottom cut" 2D component, VW would simply default to sectioning the symbol 3d geometry. That's what happens if the symbol is just floating on its own - but if it's within a window object, it just shows a blank space.

 

Then I realised that there are some settings that I can apply to the objects within the 3d component, using the "display with 2D components" button. Doing this makes some elevational lines appear in the window opening but no section cut geometry.

 

To get it to work fully, it seems that I have to put something in the 2d component (just a single 2D locus seems to do it). Then, the window appears properly.

 

Is this what's supposed to happen? Or is there something I'm missing? The same problem seems not to exist in "regular" sections.

 

I've attached a sample file (VW2023 version). There is further explanation in the sheet layer.

 

 

customwindow.vwx

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Screenshot of sheet layer in the sample file

 

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Another issue - now looking at wall closures:

 

Is "wrap to insert" supposed to still work if I'm using a custom symbol within the window tool?

 

If I use these same settings for wall closure applied to a standard window and a custom one:

 

 

Then the result is this:

 

On the right, the "plaster" layer wraps to the face of the window, but on the left it ignores it and carries on the midpoint of the window frame (NB it's not going to "center of core" either).

[zoomer]

I do not really understand the reason why you insert your Symbol custom

Windows into the Window PIO Container.

 

Wouldn't horizontal Section (and probably Wall Closures) work better with

Symbols directly inserted in Walls ?

 

In this case you don't want 2D appearances replacing the true cut appearance.

I think in a Wall cutting Symbol you could do so if you want.

But I would think this would no more work if such a Symbol is "occluded" for

2D appearances when inside a PIO (?)

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1 minute ago, zoomer said:

I do not really understand the reason why you insert your Symbol custom

Windows into the Window PIO Container.

 

Wouldn't horizontal Section (and probably Wall Closures) work better with

Symbols directly inserted in Walls ?

 

In this case you don't want 2D appearances replacing the true cut appearance.

I think in a Wall cutting Symbol you could do so if you want.

But I would think this would no more work if such a Symbol is "occluded" for

2D appearances when inside a PIO (?)

 

Yes, I have been wondering whether I should just insert them directly into walls, and was going to experiment with this.

 

But I thought the advantage of doing it within the window tool would be that it will automatically make me "wall hole" and "wall closure" components, whereas if I just use a symbol I will have to make these manually.

 

Also, that it would more easily let me set things like the height of the window in the wall, and let me report it as a window object in schedules etc (although, this is not really so important for me).

[zoomer]

30 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Also, that it would more easily let me set things like the height of the window in the wall, and let me report it as a window object in schedules etc

 

Got it.

 

30 minutes ago, line-weight said:

But I thought the advantage of doing it within the window tool would be that it will automatically make me "wall hole" and "wall closure" components, whereas if I just use a symbol I will have to make these manually.

 

I am not sure how this really works.

I thought in the past, when Walls were more 2D-like organized,

inserting a Symbol without a dedicated Cut Volume into a Wall,

would cut automatically through the whole Wall depth and just

use the overall Symbol boundary rectangle/cube as a "cutting"

Profile (?)

Then this should work for your standard rectangular geometry

without manual cutting geometry part.

 

(Or was it by adding Points to the Symbol standard geometry ?)

 

And I am not sure how well Wall Closures accept/recognize

inserted Symbols or extra Cut Volumes in general.

 

 

55 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Is "wrap to insert" supposed to still work

 

My first thought would have been to play with the Window Settings,

to make Wall closures using the "virtual" Window data.

But not sure if Windows will treated completely different as soon

as they are based on an "overall" custom Symbol.

But maybe worth a try.

[Tom W.]

42 minutes ago, line-weight said:

But I thought the advantage of doing it within the window tool would be that it will automatically make me "wall hole" and "wall closure" components, whereas if I just use a symbol I will have to make these manually.

 

The advantage of the Use Symbol Geometry function within a Window (or Door) is that the object is then a Window (or Door) object + can be scheduled + tagged as such. Which I suspect is of no benefit to you (but as far as I'm concerned is an excellent feature).

 

To get the wall closures to work I think you need to include a Wall Closure Component in the symbol.

[Matt Panzer]

Hi @line-weight,

 

I took a look at your file and he's a video of how I got it to work:

 

 

 

 

[zoomer]

4 hours ago, Tom W. said:

The advantage of the Use Symbol Geometry function within a Window (or Door) is that the object is then a Window (or Door) object + can be scheduled + tagged as such.

 

Don't need that often so not experienced.

But I just assumed you could basically do the same with Symbols ...

E.g. by Data Manager.

 

I mean it was always proposed, if you can't get your desired Window by

VW's Window Tool - use your own geometry in a Symbol and insert it into a Wall ....

 

And I also heard that people insert Window PIOs in Symbols

(to only make as much custom geometry manually as needed but still make use

of Window's parametric comfort)

 

But never before heard using Symbols in PIOs intentionally.

I just know that feature exists from my Revit imports.

Where my experience with that soon made me think that is pretty useless ....

(For several reasons .....)

Edited December 8, 2023 by zoomer

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5 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

Hi @line-weight,

 

I took a look at your file and he's a video of how I got it to work:

 

 

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to record this.

 

Firstly, regarding the wrapping to the insert: the key point seems to be that I have to give it the wall closure component. I'd hoped that might be generated automatically ... like the wall hole component is ... and that this might be an advantage of using a custom symbol inside a window object.

 

Regarding the stuff you have to do in order to get the sectioned 3d geometry to show up in a "display 2d components" HSVP - I think what you are showing is essentially the same as what I worked out via trial and error.

 

My question here is, is there a good reason that it's necessary to go through all these extra steps? It seems to me that if the symbol has no 2d component, it would be logical just to section the 3d geometry. That's what seems to happen in "regular" sections.

 

I've just done some experiments simply placing the symbol into the wall (rather than wrapping it in a Window POI). Compared to using the Window POI method, there's one extra bit of work I need to do, which is to give it a wall hole component. But seeing as I have to give it a wall closure component anyway, this is quite easy to do. The wrapping then works fine.

 

Additionally, placing the symbol (with no 2d components) directly into the wall means that in the HSVP, it sections as I want it - I don't need to go through all those extra steps, adding a locus to the 2d component and so on.

 

So for me, it looks like placing the symbol directly into the wall is the least painful method. As far as I can see, the only real disadvantage is that it can't then report as a window object (not something that matters too much for me).

[Matt Panzer]

53 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

Thanks for taking the time to record this.

 

Firstly, regarding the wrapping to the insert: the key point seems to be that I have to give it the wall closure component. I'd hoped that might be generated automatically ... like the wall hole component is ... and that this might be an advantage of using a custom symbol inside a window object.

 

Right.  The reason the closure is not automatically created is because there are too many cases where the closure object geometry would not be as simple as taking the overall bounds of the symbol's 3D geometry and the results would very often not be good.  The automatic creation of the wall hole has always been there and there are many more common cases where the auto-generated hold geometry works fine.

 

53 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Regarding the stuff you have to do in order to get the sectioned 3d geometry to show up in a "display 2d components" HSVP - I think what you are showing is essentially the same as what I worked out via trial and error.

 

My question here is, is there a good reason that it's necessary to go through all these extra steps? It seems to me that if the symbol has no 2d component, it would be logical just to section the 3d geometry. That's what seems to happen in "regular" sections.

 

I've just done some experiments simply placing the symbol into the wall (rather than wrapping it in a Window POI). Compared to using the Window POI method, there's one extra bit of work I need to do, which is to give it a wall hole component. But seeing as I have to give it a wall closure component anyway, this is quite easy to do. The wrapping then works fine.

 

Additionally, placing the symbol (with no 2d components) directly into the wall means that in the HSVP, it sections as I want it - I don't need to go through all those extra steps, adding a locus to the 2d component and so on.

 

So for me, it looks like placing the symbol directly into the wall is the least painful method. As far as I can see, the only real disadvantage is that it can't then report as a window object (not something that matters too much for me).

 

Right.  The reason for this is because the Door and Window still create some 2D geometry (2D loci and a polygon with no line thickness) and can also display 2D ID Tags.  So there's always something in the PIO's 2D component.  There are reasons for this 2D geometry so it's not as simple as having the PIO not create it.

[zoomer]

6 hours ago, zoomer said:

But never before heard using Symbols in PIOs intentionally.

 

But if I got it correct,

(for me this is new)

 

for custom Windows, not possible to create with VW Windows,

adding custom Window geometries as Symbols inside the Window PIO

is still a valid, if not recommended, Workflow ?

 

My experience with such combinations from Revit Door imports so far was just ....

- Door PIO Dimensions neither read/care of/take over actual Revit Door's nor their (simlified) Boundaries dimensions

- All such Doors in VW just showed the same default VW Door dimensions

- changing dimensions in Door PIO has no influence to Symbol Door geometry/is ignored

(opposed to e.g. a custom Symbol for a Door Leaf - which would be simply scaled in such circumstances)

- renaming the Symbols used in Doors in RM, leaded to breaking Links/loss of the geometry of these Doors

(how to ever remember the overwritten (illegible) former Revit name or how to know which Symbol to reassign now ?)

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The fact that there is the option to do it within the window PIO's settings, would surely suggest that it's at least "valid".

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1 hour ago, Matt Panzer said:

Right.  The reason for this is because the Door and Window still create some 2D geometry (2D loci and a polygon with no line thickness) and can also display 2D ID Tags.  So there's always something in the PIO's 2D component.  There are reasons for this 2D geometry so it's not as simple as having the PIO not create it.

 

Ok I see. This only applies in plan view, I guess? Hence vertical sections behave differently?

[Matt Panzer]

1 hour ago, line-weight said:

3 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

Right.  The reason for this is because the Door and Window still create some 2D geometry (2D loci and a polygon with no line thickness) and can also display 2D ID Tags.  So there's always something in the PIO's 2D component.  There are reasons for this 2D geometry so it's not as simple as having the PIO not create it.

 

Ok I see. This only applies in plan view, I guess? Hence vertical sections behave differently?

 

Right. The Door and Window do not create 2D graphics for most 2D components in including the "Left (and Right) Cut" component which will be seen in vertical sections.  Since there is not geometry in the relative 2D component of a section, the 3D component automatically displays.

[Tom W.]

16 hours ago, zoomer said:

But I just assumed you could basically do the same with Symbols ...

E.g. by Data Manager.

 

I don't use the Data Manager enough to know the answer but be interested to know. I thought it allows you to map one data field to another data field + then combine multiple data fields from different sources in a single data sheet: I don't think you can map two different data fields from two different sources to a single new field e.g. take the built-in 'ID' field from a Window + merge it with your own 'ID' record field attached to a custom window symbol. Could be wrong but all the same it's got to be easier to just 'wrap' your window symbol in a Window object + then it will automatically have all the data fields you need... That way you can have 18 Windows in a drawing + 2 custom window symbols but as far as VW is concerned (when you search for them in a worksheet) you have 20 Windows which is really the way you want it.

[line-weight]

I'm now getting pretty close to what I want, using custom windows inserted as symbols into walls, and using the wall closure options.

 

 

On the left is what I can get in a HSVP without needing to do any fixes in the annotations space. This is already pretty good - I can get the internal and external components to wrap pretty much as I want. The external render (at the bottom of the images) can wrap back to the brickwork, tucking in alongside the window frame leaving a gap of the width that I want. That gap I have made by making the hole cut component of the symbol slightly larger than the size of the windowframe itself (in place of what would be the "shim gap" using a window object).

 

And the internal plaster finish can wrap round and meet the frame, as determined by the wall closure component of the symbol (I could get it to slightly stand off the frame if I wanted.

 

On the right, I've added some stuff in annotations, which I can't seem to do using the wall closure controls. Really I'd like the internal plaster finish to sail slightly beyond the edge of the brickwork opening, leaving a gap behind it where it wraps into the reveal because in reality there will be a metal fixing lug (indicated in blue) in here, which will need a bit of space.

 

Am I right in thinking I can't do that with the wrapping settings? The closest I can do is what I've shown on the left where I've just increased the thickness of that layer where it wraps into the reveal. I guess I could add another wall component, with zero thickness, in between the plaster finish and the brickwork, which could then wrap and gain a thickness in the reveal to create the void/stand-off but that seems a bit of a clunky workaround.

[Tom W.]

3 minutes ago, line-weight said:

I guess I could add another wall component, with zero thickness, in between the plaster finish and the brickwork, which could then wrap and gain a thickness in the reveal to create the void/stand-off but that seems a bit of a clunky workaround

 

This is what I was going to suggest. I am pretty sure I have done this + it worked.

 

But is the plaster finish wet or drywall? If the former would you want a gap anyway? If the latter I include a drywall adhesive component which gives you something to wrap + would appear on the internal face of the wall as well

[line-weight]

Yes you're right that in the final detail, it might end up that I'd want an additional component anyway. But at this stage it's more proof of concept to understand what I can and can't do with these wall wrappings.

 

[line-weight]

For example... if for some reason I wanted the exterior detail to do this, it would be tricky, right?

 

Because the "profile offsets" bit of wall closure controls, it sets portions in or out based on whether they are adjacent to the window frame rather than per wall component.

 

[Matt Panzer]

17 hours ago, line-weight said:

For example... if for some reason I wanted the exterior detail to do this, it would be tricky, right?

 

Because the "profile offsets" bit of wall closure controls, it sets portions in or out based on whether they are adjacent to the window frame rather than per wall component.

 

 

You mean like this?

 

Wall Closure Test.vwx

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51 minutes ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

You mean like this?

 

Wall Closure Test.vwx

 

Ah yes - I see.

 

I can get my version to do the same:

 

 

Giving a -100mm offset in the "profile offsets" tab for "exterior":

 

 

And it makes that offset happen along the boundary between the wall components.

 

But if I put a -100 offset in the "interior" part something different happens, it applies the offset in line with the inside of the window insert:

 

 

Which is why I think I'd decided this couldn't help me.

 

I'm not clear how it decides where the offset step-back is giong to happen... do different rules apply depending whether it's inside or outside of the wall core?

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by line-weight

[Matt Panzer]

2 hours ago, line-weight said:

 

Ah yes - I see.

 

I can get my version to do the same:

 

 

Giving a -100mm offset in the "profile offsets" tab for "exterior":

 

 

And it makes that offset happen along the boundary between the wall components.

 

But if I put a -100 offset in the "interior" part something different happens, it applies the offset in line with the inside of the window insert:

 

 

Which is why I think I'd decided this couldn't help me.

 

I'm not clear how it decides where the offset step-back is giong to happen... do different rules apply depending whether it's inside or outside of the wall core?

 

 

Can you show an illustration of how you want that example to look?

Also, can you send me a file with that window in wall?

[line-weight]

4 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

Can you show an illustration of how you want that example to look?

Also, can you send me a file with that window in wall?

 

To be clear - for this particular wall/window combination I am able to get it to look pretty much as I actually want it.

 

This is just me exploring the options to understand what is and isn't possible. But say, for the sake of argument, I wanted it to look like this:

 

(I know that's not a very realistic example of something that someone would actually want)

 

I've attached a copy of the file.

 

 

closure_offset.vwx

Edited December 12, 2023 by line-weight

[Matt Panzer]

This is what I get after I changed the "Plaster" component to "Wrap To" the "insulation" component:

 

 

[Tom W.]

19 minutes ago, Matt Panzer said:

This is what I get after I changed the "Plaster" component to "Wrap To" the "insulation" component:

 

 

 

I have been working on the assumption that a check in the 'Wrap to Insert' column overrode whatever the 'Wrap To' column was set to but judging on your settings above that was obviously wrong...