3D symbols versus 2D/3D symbols

[Mike_M]

Hello all,

 

I've done some research into this but still have much to learn. I've been drafting some stock items for work and creating symbols of them to be re-used later via the resource manager. I've noticed that the symbols I create appear in the object info palette as just "3D symbols" while anything I grab from them the resource manager appear as "2D/3D symbols". I'm curious if there are any glaring advantages to having a 2D/3D symbol instead of just a 3D symbol. If there is I'd love to know and figure out how to create my symbols the best way going forward.

 

Thanks!

[Pat Stanford]

High level description here.

 

VW uses the concept of Hybrid (2D/3D) symbols to allow objects to have a different appearance in Top/Plan (2D) views than in 3D views.

 

Think about a door. In the Top/Plan view you want to be able to see the swing while in 3D views you really only want to see the leaf. And probably a more detailed view of the leaf than you need in Top/Plan.

 

The down side to hybrid symbols is that they can only be rotated around the Z axis meaning that you can rotate them in a Top or Top/Plan view, but not in an elevation or other view.  3D only symbols can be rotated in any direction.

 

To make a Hybrid symbol, you can Edit the symbol and set the component edit options to be Top and Show Other 3D so you can snap to the 3D objects for reference.

Or before you make a symbol if you have both 3D and 2D Layer Plane objects, there is an option in the Create Symbol dialog box to make Layer Plane 2D objects into the Top/Plan view of the symbol.

 

One reason you might want a hybrid symbol is that 3D objects only show as wireframe in Top/Plan view. If you want to have a fill in Top/Plan, then you need to have a hybrid object.

 

Ask again if you need more clarity.

 

 

 

[Elite Exhibits]

Mike

 

The 2D/3D Hybrid Concept allows for the 2D component to be extremely simplified, making the drawing creation / editing process much easier. (ie: a simple 2D shape, like a rectangle, is easy to quickly select and position, compared to a complex 3D item it represents: a gondola in a store set up design for example.

 

If your Workflow is akin to COLORFORMS, (Googler it ...) then 2D/3D Hybrid is the best method. Keep in mind, a big plus is that the Top/Plan view, when these 2D/3D Hybrid symbols are utilized, is already finished .  With Legacy, or 3D Only applications, the Top / Plan needs to be rendered to create a coherent presentation.

 

We use 2D/3D Hybrid as much of what we design is created from a stock set of components. (ie: 2D/3D Hybrid Symbols).

 

The use of 2D/3D Hybrid  symbols also allows for integrated information that is only seen in the Top / Plan view while the 3D component of the 2D/3D Hybrid is shown in the rendered perspectives.  Color, text, size designation, etcetera. This happens automatically when switching views.

 

Concept: Similar shape Items, could have assigned colors in the 2D component (...that only show in Top/Plan) to visually indicate variations in the associated 3D component. Likewise, text could appear in the 2D component, that is not shown when switching to a 3D view. This is a long standing (unique) automatic feature of VW/RW.

 

 

Attached Example - Page 1, the 2D Top/Plan is simple with a plethora of information: Wall Heights are shown by color, graphics designated by pattern, furniture is easily understood as white, wood tone, grey etcetera.  No rendering needed. There are no Viewports used or needed - No additional annotations for the Symbols, if the identifying text is part of the 2D / 3D Hybrid Symbol. The page 2 rendering (Same drawing as page 1 Top/Plan) looks very realistic, and only Open GL was used. (Shaded) 

 

 

 

FYI: The addition of the Component Edit Mode has reeked havoc with what once was a simple process for editing 2D/3D Hybrid Symbols in VW/RW - Not the creation of, Not the use of, Not the appearance of, but the editing.

 

 

 

My 2¢

 

FYI

Peter

311308738_2D_3DHybridExample_1.pdf

[Mike_M]

Pat,

 

Thanks for the detailed response as always. I was a bit confused for a moment but figured out I need both 2D and 3D elements drawn in order to create a Hybrid Symbol. Simply extruding and converting was resulting in just a 3D symbol. I had to drawn over the extruded object in plan view, giving a the 3D a 2D "layer" on top. Selecting both the 2D and 3D elements and creating a symbol resulted in a 2D/3D hybrid.

 

You have been super helpful with a handful of questions I have had. While I have you here, in regards to the general forum format, is there a way of directly responding to comments? I see no direct reply options anywhere. It seems like anyone in the thread will just get a notification based on a new response. Is this the case?

 

Peter,

 

I really appreciate the images you attached. That is a great representation of what I'm working to achieve. Very comprehensive explanation of the pros to using Hybrid Symbols as well. I've tackled a fair bit of drafting in Vectorworks and AutoCAD, creating drafts for the shop floor/CNC. Recently I've been working on getting more adept with Spotlight and drawing entire show layouts now. Seems like I'm on the right path! Thank you!

[Pat Stanford]

If you want something to be private, you can hover over the posters name and then choose Message from there.

 

But I recommend leaving as much public as possible. This forum is a large part of my external brain and I like to have as many options here as possible. 😉

 

[rDesign]

@Mike Moran

 

Also take a look over at the Vw University portal: if ths direct link doesn’t work because you’re not logged in, the course is named ‘Creating Hybrid Symbols’:

https://university.vectorworks.net/mod/overview/view.php?id=2249

[Tom W.]

And remember, the '2D' element in a hybrid symbol isn't confined to Top/Plan, it can be any view which is normal to the symbol (front, back, left, right, bottom) plus there are separate components for cut planes (for section viewports). Additionally, you can customise the detail level of this geometry so that you can see more or less depending on what 'Detail Level' setting is selected in the viewport (the same applies to the 3D geometry). It's all about controlling how the 3D object is depicted in plan, elevation + section views.

 

Have a look at the Help pages for more info: https://app-help.vectorworks.net/2023/eng/VW2023_Guide/Symbols/Concept_ 2D_components_for_symbol_definitions_and_plug-in.htm

 

10 hours ago, Mike Moran said:

I was a bit confused for a moment but figured out I need both 2D and 3D elements drawn in order to create a Hybrid Symbol. Simply extruding and converting was resulting in just a 3D symbol. I had to drawn over the extruded object in plan view, giving a the 3D a 2D "layer" on top. Selecting both the 2D and 3D elements and creating a symbol resulted in a 2D/3D hybrid.

 

Another approach is to start off with a 3D symbol then add 2D components to it afterwards, in the process converting it into a hybrid symbol. A 3D-only symbol will only have a 3D component listed in the Component Edit palette:

 

 

But you can then click on 'Top' for example to enter the edit mode for the Top/Plan geometry + here right-click + select 'Generate 2D from 3D Component...' from the context menu + select 'Hidden Line Rendering' in the next dialog + VW will auto-generate 2D graphics from your 3D geometry. Repeat the process for other views as required. Use the 'Display at Detail Level' settings in the OIP to control what geometry is displayed at the different detail levels. Use classes to additionally control what geometry is seen at different times - for example, you might want to include a schematic representation of an object, a realistic image-based representation + a line drawn representation all contained within the same symbol but their visibility controlled by class. You can also add 2D loci on a NonPlot class to aid placement of symbols - if you have a WC for example you always want to be a certain distance away from side walls.

 

16 hours ago, Mike Moran said:

I've noticed that the symbols I create appear in the object info palette as just "3D symbols" while anything I grab from them the resource manager appear as "2D/3D symbols".

 

There are actually 2D-only symbols as well. These have a small '2' in the bot RH corner in the Resource Manager. 3D-only symbols have a small '3'. Hybrid symbols have nothing. These are all 'black' symbols in the RM. In addition there are blue 'Group' symbols, red 'PIO' symbols + green 'page-based' symbols.

[LarryO]

And if for some reason you need to rotate a hybrid symbol in 3d space and the tool says you cannot; begin edit of the 2d portion, select all, CUT to the clipboard, exit edit mode, there being no 2d elements the symbol will become 3d, now you can do that 3d rotation, return to 2d edit mode and paste in place, exit edit mode and symbol will revert to hybrid status. The caveat is, whatever you do, DO NOT do a copy or cut operation before "pasting in place" the contents of the clip board somewhere safe.

[Mike_M]

On 3/20/2023 at 4:12 PM, Pat Stanford said:

If you want something to be private, you can hover over the posters name and then choose Message from there.

 

But I recommend leaving as much public as possible. This forum is a large part of my external brain and I like to have as many options here as possible. 😉

 

 

Will do Pat. The community here is great and perhaps other people will stumble across my questions and the corresponding answers. I definitely need the external storage space as well.

 

On 3/21/2023 at 2:45 AM, Tom W. said:

And remember, the '2D' element in a hybrid symbol isn't confined to Top/Plan, it can be any view which is normal to the symbol (front, back, left, right, bottom) plus there are separate components for cut planes (for section viewports). Additionally, you can customise the detail level of this geometry so that you can see more or less depending on what 'Detail Level' setting is selected in the viewport (the same applies to the 3D geometry). It's all about controlling how the 3D object is depicted in plan, elevation + section views.

 

Have a look at the Help pages for more info: https://app-help.vectorworks.net/2023/eng/VW2023_Guide/Symbols/Concept_ 2D_components_for_symbol_definitions_and_plug-in.htm

 

 

Another approach is to start off with a 3D symbol then add 2D components to it afterwards, in the process converting it into a hybrid symbol. A 3D-only symbol will only have a 3D component listed in the Component Edit palette:

 

 

But you can then click on 'Top' for example to enter the edit mode for the Top/Plan geometry + here right-click + select 'Generate 2D from 3D Component...' from the context menu + select 'Hidden Line Rendering' in the next dialog + VW will auto-generate 2D graphics from your 3D geometry. Repeat the process for other views as required. Use the 'Display at Detail Level' settings in the OIP to control what geometry is displayed at the different detail levels. Use classes to additionally control what geometry is seen at different times - for example, you might want to include a schematic representation of an object, a realistic image-based representation + a line drawn representation all contained within the same symbol but their visibility controlled by class. You can also add 2D loci on a NonPlot class to aid placement of symbols - if you have a WC for example you always want to be a certain distance away from side walls.

 

 

There are actually 2D-only symbols as well. These have a small '2' in the bot RH corner in the Resource Manager. 3D-only symbols have a small '3'. Hybrid symbols have nothing. These are all 'black' symbols in the RM. In addition there are blue 'Group' symbols, red 'PIO' symbols + green 'page-based' symbols.

 

Tom, this is great! In some cases I've been extruding simple objects so leaving 2D copies behind isn't a big deal. With more complicated models I can see myself forgetting to create copies of the necessary extrusions, then having to double back to do so and/or re-drawing objects. No need to do this when I can let Vectorworks auto-generate the 2D graphics for me!

 

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "if you have a WC for example you always want to be a certain distance away from side walls"?

[Tom W.]

35 minutes ago, Mike Moran said:

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "if you have a WC for example you always want to be a certain distance away from side walls"?

 

Oops do you not say WC in the US? A toilet 🙂

 

[Mike_M]

18 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

Oops do you not say WC in the US? A toilet 🙂

 

 

lol, no WC/water closet doesn't get used very often. It's a shame really.

[Tom W.]

3 minutes ago, Mike Moran said:

 

lol, no WC/water closet doesn't get used very often. It's a shame really.

 

I'll call it a loo next time 🙂

[scottmoore]

On 3/23/2023 at 12:45 PM, Tom W. said:

 

I'll call it a loo next time 🙂

In the US, the term water closet has started gaining traction referring to a toilet in a small, isolated room as opposed to being open to the entire restroom. 
 

I recall a story from the ‘70s where an American architect had designed a wayside chapel into an overall concept. He abbreviated it “WC”. An English client was extremely confused to fine the WC had seating for up to 40 people…..

 

Regarding hybrid symbols, this was a huge selling point to me back in the MiniCad 5 days. “You can draw in 2D and 3D simultaneously?  Sold!”  Keep in mind that the 2D component doesn’t have to be a literal representation of the 3D object. Two examples:

 

The accepted symbol for a wall outlet (at least in the US) is a circle with two lines through it. Create a hybrid symbol that has the circle and two lines as its 2D component and an actual 3D model of a wall outlet as its 3D element. Very handy. 
 

For people symbols, take a 3D person, but in plan view add a piece of text detailing what that person’s function might be and a small cross hair mark as to where they are actually placed. Of course you could also render the person in top view, export that image and use the image file as your 2D. 
 

Tons of useful options in hybrid symbols.