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digitalcarbon

Bug Report - The future is here!

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2 hours ago, digitalcarbon said:

i use WGR as my main way to get my Libraries into my files. its my major work horse 

 

it crashes alot...something like after 3 updates it will crash... every time

 

Project sharing...not so much 

 

Actually I've just deduced that the problem we had today was Project Sharing. Changes in a Working File weren't getting pushed to the Project File. But I was blaming it on WGR because one Project File is WGR'd into another and it seemed like WGRing was the culprit.

 

Then I look at Cloud CAD; it has the same capabilities (Project Sharing and Workgroup Referencing) but they're built in at a much lower level so not only are they less likely to go wrong but if it does go wrong you're not poking around in a file system (with all the potential pitfalls and mistakes that entails in itself). 

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what is funny is there is no "pushing" in Onshape...everything is instant 

 

if you send me your email i will include you in a public doc and you can see real time interaction....

 

granted we will have the potential to really screw it up but lets try it out..

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But, Christiaan, is it the cloud or is it software engineering?  What is it about being in the cloud that make any software inherently more usable or stable, or whatever?  I would argue that better software is better software, regardless of how it is delivered or accessed, and that for my purposes as an architect seeking to have control over the security of my files, my ownership of my files, and my ownership of CAD tools, the cloud is not where I would like to be.  The cloud is the place for those who sell time on cloud computers and want to monetize the use of software as a commodity instead of a tool, since we become totally dependent on them and their equipment.  In this sense, selling the cloud as a technological solution as opposed to what it really is - a money-making scheme - that is a hype.

 

When you say there is "no pushing in Onshape," I assume that means the document is actually stored on the cloud computer.  It has to be for CAD work of any substance, otherwise every save from RAM has to go through the internet connection.  That also means - drum roll - that your design documents now live on someone else's computer, subject to whatever insecurities that implies.  Hostageware, poor management, shutdowns, going out of business, all outside your control.  This is exactly why I no longer use AIA contract document software, all my contracts would have to be in the possession of the AIA and live on their server.  Thanks, but no.

Edited by P Retondo

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P Retondo, we have had this discussion before on this site..

 

It boils do to this... the inventors of Solid Works (1995) sold Solid Works in ~2010 to start up Onshape a total cloud solution...

 

You need to watch all their videos on why they left a successful business to form a cloud based cad system...

 

This core Solid Works team is the most skilled in the world of CAD computing...either they are on to something or their idiots... 

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On 19/01/2018 at 8:50 PM, P Retondo said:

What is it about being in the cloud that make any software inherently more usable or stable, or whatever?

 

  • Lack of archaic file management. This is a gigantic advantage in my opinion. File management is an anachronism and one of the biggest sources of time wasting in our office. The only step you ever have to take before doing work in Onshape as far as I can see is to log in and click on your project.
  • Version control built right in, again without file management. Show me a desktop app that does this as smoothly as Onshape.
  • The developers manage the hardware and software. No need to manage a server, no need to manage desktop software, no need to manage updates, no need to deal with any problems relating to these management tasks. No need for expensive hardware too.
  • Agro-free working in teams. Again no file management, none of the stupid hoops we have to jump through when Project Sharing goes wrong, as it does at least every week for us.
  • Constant incremental software updates in the background. Much easier to deal with than large annual changes IMO.
  • Can use any device with a web browser and an internet connection anywhere in the world to access and work on your projects.
  • Sharing data is incredibly smooth. Again no files to manage. You just give people access. It's like everybody in the world having a copy of a smooth running Vectorworks on all their devices, with all the files they need to access built in.
  • And as far as I can see, they're more nimble, they can develop faster. They can concentrate on innovations (like tech support right inside the app) because their foundation is standards based web technology and they control the hardware. They don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time, they can concentrate on getting CAD out of the way of designing.

 

As for security, all our files are on a server connected to the internet (which I manage myself). So I don't see Cloud CAD as particularly less secure, unless you have projects so sensitive that you keep them on computers that aren't connected to the internet. Everyone's data is centralised so hackers only need to target one entity but the main security problem I can envision is that sharing data is so easy that someone might give access to the wrong person by mistake.

 

The main downsides I see are:

1. You always need an internet connection to work

2. You don't have full control of your data, so if Onshape's systems go down you're have a serious problem

Edited by Christiaan

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@Christiaan...nailed it...

 

https://status.onshape.com/

 

just to be clear...this is not a VW vs Onshape issue...this is a desktop computer in my home that can only run VW vs a cloud version of VW (working similar to Onshape)

 

keep in mind that a cloud version of VW, done badly, is not going to work just because its in the cloud (P Retondo fears come true)

 

so i hope vw does it right...it should be a new product...new tool layout... such as when making sheets...all the 3d tools disappear to save space because you don't need them when making sheets...

 

so if you did allow people to harvest data then they only need to be allowed into the sheets area with little learning curve...

 

VW should seriously consider talking to these people to develop the Architectural version of Onshape because Onshape is terrible at large scale layout like building a factory with all the pipe etc. 

 

 

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Christiaan, I see your points 6 and 7 as being inherent to a cloud-based system (access from anywhere, easier sharing).  Other than that, the rest just speaks to superior software engineering - which I will stipulate the software you like does have, given the high level of your experience.  Yes, file management should be made more simple.  I'm sure that if file management is better with Onshape, that is due to software, not some personal file management nanny assigned to the project.  Updates should be smoother (if NNA could get their engineering together, user control over whether to update would cease to be a necessary thing).  The biggest drawbacks in cloud-based are that we lose control of the tools and their management, and that we may be paying more for CAD - if not now, in the future.  Good engineering does not come for nothing, and file management, access and server space cannot be free.  If the cloud server goes down due to cyber attacks or other problems, all users will be dead in the water.  If we are worried about files being pirated, wiped out by hackers, or just lost due to neglect, we will be at the mercy of the corporation to which we have ceded control.  That concerns me very much, almost as much as parametric tools starting to dictate a narrow range of design solutions.

 

PS: regarding the point of file security.  Correct me if I am wrong, but the project files for a cloud-based CAD system will have to live on the cloud server.  My assumption is that the CAD software is loaded on a cloud computer and works with that computer's RAM.  Otherwise, every operation and processor request would have to travel over a very small pipeline between your desktop and the cloud.  This means your desktop is just operating as a terminal to send commands and receive screen updates.  The program is operating in the cloud, the application memory is on RAM on the cloud computer.  So every file save is between the cloud computer and the cloud storage server, otherwise we would be waiting forever with every save and that would not work.  The only alternative is that the cloud server file is just temporary, requiring that at the beginning and end of work on any CAD file we would have to wait for the entire file to be transferred over the internet.  Slow, not really viable.  That's why I assume we would have to give up physical custody of our work for this to be practical.

 

BTW, I did check out this scenario for how cloud applications work with AIA Documents tech support, and they confirmed that is exactly how their system operates.

Edited by P Retondo

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here is a small bug i reported a few weeks ago

 

just got this notice today

 

so with out any major SP updates an me wondering if my issue got fixed...

 

i now know its fixed

 

i like this...well done

 

5a6603c760fc8_ScreenShot2018-01-22at10_29_04AM.thumb.png.afc6804401fb7fe24c916236e01ff3b5.png

 

 

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dc, I take your point that it is logistically much easier to update maybe several hundred instances of a program on cloud servers than many thousands in offices around the world.  Plus, that sounds like outstanding response to a bug!  All the same, we theoretically have the ability to update our desktops - my internet security program does it automatically every day.

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In an email I just received from Onshape: 

 

Quote

As with everything else with modern CAD, the goal is for you to stop thinking about your software and focus more on what you love – designing!

 

That’s why Onshape has not only improved the way you model, but also has eliminated the aggravation and hassle of organizing your CAD data. The problem is files. Old CAD systems constantly require engineers to locate, validate, organize and archive hundreds (if not thousands) of individual design files.

 

These guys aren't just making cloud CAD for the sake of it. Cloud CAD resolves longstanding issues with desktop CAD.

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1 hour ago, Christiaan said:

In an email I just received from Onshape: 

Quote

As with everything else with modern CAD, the goal is for you to stop thinking about your software and focus more on what you love – designing!

 

That’s why Onshape has not only improved the way you model, but also has eliminated the aggravation and hassle of organizing your CAD data. The problem is files. Old CAD systems constantly require engineers to locate, validate, organize and archive hundreds (if not thousands) of individual design files.

 

These guys aren't just making cloud CAD for the sake of it. Cloud CAD resolves longstanding issues with desktop CAD.

 

Well... with regard to the problem of the files they are talking about... assuming one needs (and wants) to have a backup of what is on Onshape's servers one will need to download the documents anyway and guess what.... it requires constant updating, validating and organizing of those backup files so we're back to square one of the problem they claim to solve. Not just that, these backups are not as full-fledged as the originals unlike local desktop CAD file backups

 

Only if one wants to fully rely on Onshape for file recovery and organizing it may be true, but even then only to some extent as you still need to organize and document the files. Only validation is skipped as there is no file format version to worry about.

 

Imho cloud is a way of solving some issues with regard to CAD etc., not the way of solving these things and it will bring new issues to solve as well.

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6 minutes ago, mjm said:

Personally, I'd be thrilled if Zoomer were referring to the B-Thing art event, instead of CAD in this instance. 

B-thing will be having its annual conference in London this year, so you if you are in the UK or there in October you could have a look at it to see if this event matches the B-thing event of your link. B|

 

It might be nice to have a VW Design Summit in Europe some day.

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1 minute ago, Art V said:

B-thing will be having its annual conference in London this year, so you if you are in the UK or there in October you could have a look at it to see if this event matches the B-thing event of your link. B|

 

It might be nice to have a VW Design Summit in Europe some day.

Well, clearly, architecture is clearly important to both 'B's. That said, unlikely the UK is on my calendar for October, but Kazakstan is looking promising for November.

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1 hour ago, Art V said:

It might be nice to have a VW Design Summit in Europe some day.


I would love this so much! Finally get to visit some faces on the other side of the globe.

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