Wall Join in Groups

[VincentCuclair]

Please make it possible to join walls to walls that are part of a group.

[CipesDesign]

Hi Vincent, Are you asking for the ability to perform operations on individual Objects within Groups? Doesn't this go directly against one of the whole purposes of the Group as a container? In every case, one must Enter the Group, perform operations, then Exit. Why should Wall Joins be different??

[VincentCuclair]

Yes that's what i would like and it depends on why you use groups, for me a group is mostly created to 'gather together' a number of different objects with a specific placement in relation to one another ie the example that made me post the wish includes a specific setup for a staircase, elevator and enclosing walls. I want to be able to move the whole thing around during the design stage but i also would like to join the remaing walls to the walls in the group.

In my experience i very seldomly use groups as a means to avoid interacting with the objects in it, quite the contrary, it would save a lot of time if i simply could select an object in a group and change it, ie the stair or a door etc. If i have a group of objects and want to avoid changing them i create a symbol instead.

Either way it should be quite easy to add an option that 'locks' objects in a group to avoid the interaction i am wishing for.

Perhaps it could be called an interactive group.....

Edited December 15, 2013 by Vincent C

[CipesDesign]

Thanks for clarifying. I now understand what you're after, and I think it would be helpful, however, I think what you're requesting would need to be a new & different type of container (or a special group as you suggest), otherwise some of the functionality of a Group would be removed. This is a useful wish list item and I look forward to seeing what, if anything, develops from it. P

[VincentCuclair]

Ha ha that's a very diplomatic answer Peter I realise that it needs to be thought through a bit more and the question would be how far to take it when it comes to changing/editing group objects and the relation between them. Obviously existing functionality should remain as an option.

Here's the problem I have at the moment

(I realize I can extend and trim the walls and lines without this functionality but there'll be more concrete walls that need to join the concrete walls in the group with a clean join etc. In this case once the staircase placement have been fixed I'll simply ungroup, but that only shows that being able to have 'interactive groups' would be useful thing.

E.g. the presence of L-joins between walls in the group and outside could be kept when the group gets moved, that would only speed up things.

The fact remains that creating a group isolates these objects completely and that is not always a good thing.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Vincent C

[CipesDesign]

The older I get the more diplomatic I try to be ;-)

[Dieter @ DWorks]

I think this is a great wish! The whole group can stay as it is now, but just make it so we can join walls to the walls in the group. This will not break the group thing, but could be confusing to the user I guess.

[VincentCuclair]

I think it is just a new way of thinking, now groups are completely rigid, however once you get used to the fact that certain groups can be manipulated I think it will be very useful......

[bcd]

selective group porosity

[bc]

How about calling it a Spatial Group?

Additionally, continuing this wish for ability to interact with objects in groups, I would like to be able to (for example) extend lines to objects within groups as well. Or is that possible with current version?

Edited December 16, 2013 by bc

[PVA - Admin]

I would like to be able to (for example) extend lines to objects within groups as well. Or is that possible with current version?

I am still not able to use connect/combine to connect objects outside of a group to objects within a group as of 2014 SP2.

I personally think some other method of keeping objects together, without going as far as creating a container item such as a group or symbol would solve a LOT of user interface weirdness and complexity. A Spatial Group or Smart Group sort of concept may be a good idea, somewhere between what Groups and Constraints do, without the limitations of either.

Submitting a relatively general wishlist item for now, but more talk of what would be useful and what is currently detrimental with the current system within this thread would be helpful if anyone has any other ideas for (or frustrations with) Groups.

Edited December 16, 2013 by JimW

[Kizza]

if anyone has any other ideas for (or frustrations with) Groups.

Been requested before - the ability to add objects from outside the group or subtract objects from within the group while in the group editing mode would be handy.

[Benson Shaw]

Re group like behavior without the group:

Objects could be associated through some kind of identifier, a tag or category. Maybe tags are resources?

or Attributes? (similar to colors) with a palette.

Tags have some way to make and name custom tags on the fly.

Assign the tag through OIP or eyedropper like textures?

Tagged objects would respond to Select Similar (create a tag preset?) or a new tool "Select Associated" so everything with one tag could be moved and rotated, snapped, etc

Anyway, the tagged objects could be selected as a bunch without making a group. The individual tagged objects behave same as untagged versions for wall joins, trims and extends. The individual objects could also be moved, and edited but still keep the tag.

It will get mind bending if an object can have more than one tag. Or a tag and a material (when materials are implemented). And there are those nesting questions, too - do all the wall components carry the master tag of the wall or wall style?

If Vincent's elevator/stair landing components were associated and the bunch of them moved, would all the wall joins adjust to the new positioin? What if it moves away from unassociated some wall? How would Vectorworks decide whether to let it go and heal or extend the wall to follow the association?

There are lots of things to sort out. This may not be the way to go.

-B

[VincentCuclair]

Submitting a relatively general wishlist item for now, but more talk of what would be useful and what is currently detrimental with the current system within this thread would be helpful if anyone has any other ideas for (or frustrations with) Groups.

At the very least we should be able to 'find' objects in a group with all available tools (e.g. extend/trim/wall join etc.) without changing the group objects, this would basically leave the group function as it is now however with the added functionality of using the objects in the group to interact with (the next step would be to consider manipulation of (certain) objects in a group and to what degree?)

If Vincent's elevator/stair landing components were associated and the bunch of them moved, would all the wall joins adjust to the new positioin? What if it moves away from unassociated some wall? How would Vectorworks decide whether to let it go and heal or extend the wall to follow the association?

There are lots of things to sort out. This may not be the way to go.

-B

Basically yes, why not? Of course existing wall joins between walls within the group cannot be removed, when it comes to moving the group the existing wall joins both inside and outside should adjust accordingly however when this results in conflict we should get a warning or just not be able to move the group further until the conflict is solved, but that is how it is now outside the group too, try moving a wall with 2 others joined at the end, you can't.

I think it will be harder when it comes to simple line joins and trimming if you consider the arguments above.

I think once you accept the fact that a groups objects can be interacted with it will be no different from 'normal' drafting, I mean you don't accidentally join 2 walls in a plan, why would you accidentally join a wall to a wall in a group?

I think a very easy solution to this would be a simple checkbox in the group OIP dialog that makes direct manipulation possible. similar to the lock check box in VPs......this way you can quickly 'lock' and 'unlock' the group for manipulation during drafting. Or even better have an option for this in the quick preferences menu for universal control, then you don't even need to select the group to manipulate it this would save time.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Vincent C

[Benson Shaw]

Yeah, the lock/unlock is much better than my association thingy. I wonder which functions of the objects in the group could be unlocked? The wall joins, obviously. Everything? Move and edit objects within the group, but no need to enter the group?

This doesn't accomplish the add/subtract objects to/from the group. That'll be a different tool or command.

Good wish, Vincent!

-B