Process…

[Ryan Russell]

All,

 

Sketchup seems to have some time saving plugins that have been developed for Residential Construction for Foundations and Framing.

 

I am wondering if someone knows of anything that can benefit a Residential Single Family Construction workflow?

 

Granted we now have Cabinets that can be modeled and some scripts that have been written for creation of tubs, toilet, and sink placements, I am still struggling on understanding why Vectorworks doesn’t specifically cater more toward this workflow, etc..

 

Perhaps I am just not looking in the right place?

 

Thanks in advance your time and support.

 

Ryan Russell

 

 

[line-weight]

Surely foundations ought to be designed by a structural engineer, and for the specific site conditions & local building regulations/codes... rather than by a plugin?

[Ryan Russell]

2 hours ago, line-weight said:

Surely foundations ought to be designed by a structural engineer, and for the specific site conditions & local building regulations/codes... rather than by a plugin?

not that I don’t agree, but I would like to be able to accurately model it.

[Tom W.]

I model my strip foundations as Walls + have never had any issues doing it like that. I estimate their size/depth initially then adjust them once I've had the SE input.

 

I used to use the Wall Framer command for timber framing but now do it manually using a series of hybrid symbols I created. I find this the same amount of work, after I've gone through the Wall Framer model + tweaked everything, plus everything is automatically in the right class with the right attributes + I get the Top/Plan look I want. But that's not to say I wouldn't be very grateful for a properly developed automated solution. See:

 

 

[zoomer]

For Foundations I also use 60 cm wide Walls.

 

I think some also use Slabs but I think connected Walls and assigning

individual Wall Styles is the most flexible way for later changes and

adaptions. And you can individually overwrite heights.

[line-weight]

Because most of my projects are rather fiddly I usually end up making the foundations themselves as directly modelled solids which get edited with the push-pull tool. This feels like it matches their real life existence as imprecisely cast lumps of concrete. Then I often use wall objects for the foundation walls built from them up to ground level. I usually put all this in its own "foundations" layer to make it easier to edit in isolation from the rest of the building. The top of the foundation walls (and the bottom of the main walls) are often set to a storey level which can then be quite easily adjusted without manual intervention.

 

If we had proper "stacked elements" walls then I'd probably do it differently, but we don't.

 

As it is, if the walls have different materials or thicknesses above & below ground, you have to build them as manually stacked things anyway.

[Tom W.]

This is a recent project with footings + foundation walls all modelled as Walls, with symbols inserted for ducts/openings:

 

[Tom W.]

28 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Because most of my projects are rather fiddly I usually end up making the foundations themselves as directly modelled solids which get edited with the push-pull tool. This feels like it matches their real life existence as imprecisely cast lumps of concrete. Then I often use wall objects for the foundation walls built from them up to ground level. I usually put all this in its own "foundations" layer to make it easier to edit in isolation from the rest of the building. The top of the foundation walls (and the bottom of the main walls) are often set to a storey level which can then be quite easily adjusted without manual intervention.

 

If we had proper "stacked elements" walls then I'd probably do it differently, but we don't.

 

As it is, if the walls have different materials or thicknesses above & below ground, you have to build them as manually stacked things anyway.

 

How do you set the elevation of the directly modelled footings?

[line-weight]

30 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

How do you set the elevation of the directly modelled footings?

Just directly/manually, usually either with the 3d move command to shunt them up and down the Z axis, or snapping to already existing objects.

Generally I tend not to need to be too precise down at fondation level because any important dimensions will be taken from the SE's drawings rather than mine.

[Ryan Russell]

8 hours ago, Tom W. said:

I model my strip foundations as Walls + have never had any issues doing it like that. I estimate their size/depth initially then adjust them once I've had the SE input.

 

I used to use the Wall Framer command for timber framing but now do it manually using a series of hybrid symbols I created. I find this the same amount of work, after I've gone through the Wall Framer model + tweaked everything, plus everything is automatically in the right class with the right attributes + I get the Top/Plan look I want. But that's not to say I wouldn't be very grateful for a properly developed automated solution. See:

 

 

 It's funny because that was the exact plugin I was referring to in my original post!

 

[Ryan Russell]

It would be really nice to have the WALL TOOL revised to reflect the parameters listed below:

• Wall Justification (required) - allows the user to define the wall placement relative to the line used to draw the wall.
• Wall Header Height (required) - default header height for openings in inches.
• Stud Size (required) - pick from a selection of standard stud sizes (nominal dimensions).
• Stud Spacing (required) - center to center spacing between studs in inches.
• Stud Direction (required) - allows the stud layout to be from either the right or left.
• Start Corner (optional) - specify the corner configuration at the left end of the wall, this parameter is ignored when auto-corner configuration is enabled.
• Start Angle (optional) - specify the corner angle at the left end of the wall in degrees, this parameter is ignored when auto-corner configuration is enabled.
• End Corner (optional) - specify the corner configuration at the right end of the wall, this parameter is ignored when auto-corner configuration is enabled.
• End Angle (optional) - specify the corner angle at the right end of the wall, this parameter is ignored when auto-corner configuration is enabled.
• Top Plate Qty. (required) - number of top plates the wall is constructed with.
• Top Plate Thickness (required) - thickness of the top plate(s) in inches.
• Bottom Plate Qty. (required) - number of bottom plates the wall is constructed with.
• Bottom Plate Thickness (required) - thickness of the bottom plate(s) in inches.
• PT Bottom Plate (optional) - specify a pressure treated bottom plate
• Wall Group (optional) - wall panels can be grouped and then later modified in a batch mode.
• Wall Framing (optional) - sets the framing mode of the wall panel: 2D, 3D (No Framing), 3D (Full Framing), ICF or CMU (concrete block).
• Advanced Wall Options (optional) - enables advanced options for the wall panel (ie. sheathing, gypsum, cladding, insulation, trim, hold downs and blocking).
• Additional parameters and options are available for windows, doors, exterior trim, insulation, sheathing, cladding, gypsum, holdowns and interior trim.

 

I gather from reading other posts that the WALL TOOL is a legacy tool and hasn't been updated in some time. I would welcome a conversation with VectorWorks and would entertain assisting in reengineering that component of the software directly. Please feel free to reach out.

[Tom W.]

Are you talking about the Wall Framer command or the Wall Tool...?

[Ryan Russell]

WALL TOOL, my entire thread is/was started based on what is being done here http://design.medeek.com/resources/resources.html for Sketchup.

It's pretty amazing what this gentleman has done, and I would like to incorporate these ideas into VW.

 

While some would say this is overkill, I completely disagree. After all the more complete the digital twin becomes, the more useful the tool would be in your design arsenal. And can you imagine if it would rebuild on the fly like it does now when you modify the WNDOW / DOOR objects? 

[Tom W.]

Ok but the Wall Tool is hardly 'a legacy tool which hasn't been updated for some time'... 

[Ryan Russell]

2 hours ago, Tom W. said:

Ok but the Wall Tool is hardly 'a legacy tool which hasn't been updated for some time'... 

 

Well, what I would like to get down to is having the wall tool smartly illustrate accurate framing, both demonstrating traditional framing and modern advanced framing methods.

 

Given that we’re now being asked to conform to current IRC standards, I would think that this is now more important than ever to accurately model. Not solely for design purposes, but also for understanding the engineering, and accuracy of takeoffs for materials.

 

Software has always been designed to solve problems due to the speed the machine provides over humans. It would be a warm welcome to have this incorporated into VW.

[line-weight]

Unfortunately VW currently can't even automatically draw the "X" in sections through rough timber members at the moment.

 

It would be nice to have some kind of automated 2d representation (in plan and section) of timber framing within any component of a wall object that is in fact timber studs plus infill rather than a continuous material.

 

Having managed to do both of the above, it would certainly then be nice if those components of wall objects contained actual 3d geometry that represented the real layout of the framing.

[Tom W.]

10 minutes ago, line-weight said:

It would be nice to have some kind of automated 2d representation (in plan and section) of timber framing within any component of a wall object that is in fact timber studs plus infill rather than a continuous material.

 

I do this with Tile Fills but you have no control over where the stud/battens appear so it's purely indicative + arguably not that helpful:

 

 

If I want it done properly I use my hybrid framing symbols mentioned earlier.

 

But I agree that it would be nice to have a better solution, although not sure if tying it into the Wall tool is the way to go

 

[line-weight]

Seems to me like it would be quite important that if you changed the line of your wall, the framing would update along with it. And the wall object already defines the plane and thickness and so on.

[line-weight]

(haven't tried tile fills for that purpose by the way; I should investigate)

[Tom W.]

6 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Seems to me like it would be quite important that if you changed the line of your wall, the framing would update along with it. And the wall object already defines the plane and thickness and so on.

 

The Tile rotates with the Wall if that's what you mean. That's not an issue. The issue is things like this:

 

This is the Wall drawn initially, with the studs + battens aligned as they would be in reality (the Tile geometry has the same origin):

 

 

But once the Wall components are offset (at the Wall join) you lose the alignment:

 

 

The other thing to bear in mind is that this is all fine in a Top/Plan view but in a vertical section you obviously don't want to see the studs, you just want to see insulation, so this requires a Data Vis be applied in those VPs to change the fill.

 

8 minutes ago, line-weight said:

(haven't tried tile fills for that purpose by the way; I should investigate)

 

The other thing I do is show UFH pipework in screed (in Slabs) which is quite useful.

 

 

[line-weight]

1 hour ago, Tom W. said:

 

The Tile rotates with the Wall if that's what you mean. That's not an issue. The issue is things like this:

I was actually referring to your more general comment about whether a way of setting out framing should be tied into to the wall tool.

[Tom W.]

2 minutes ago, line-weight said:

I was actually referring to your more general comment about whether a way of setting out framing should be tied into to the wall tool.

 

It would be great if it was of course. I'm only thinking that walls come in many different types + only a proportion of them are timber framed + even then you wouldn't necessarily always want to model the framing. Maybe it would need to be a completely separate wall type: so 'Standard Wall', 'Curtain Wall', 'Timber Framed Wall'....?

 

The plug in that @Ryan Russell referenced was just for framing - in fact just for roof framing as far as I could tell.

[line-weight]

13 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

It would be great if it was of course. I'm only thinking that walls come in many different types + only a proportion of them are timber framed + even then you wouldn't necessarily always want to model the framing. Maybe it would need to be a completely separate wall type: so 'Standard Wall', 'Curtain Wall', 'Timber Framed Wall'....?

 

The plug in that @Ryan Russell referenced was just for framing - in fact just for roof framing as far as I could tell.

It's very common to have a timber framed component as part of a multi component wall though, so I'm not sure what the benefit would be in making it something separate. What a wall object lets you do is build up and edit a multilayered construction without having to draw the different layers manually - most timber framed walls would still fall within that category.

 

For me, as a starting point, if the timber frame layer in a wall was simply made with a timber member around the edges and then vertical members at X spacing and another material inbetween - that doesn't seem difficult to generate in a geometric sense but would instantly save a lot of drawing work that's currently necessary to make things easily legible. You'd have to make clear that the tool wasn't offering you some kind of structural solution or proposal of course but that's no different to the curtain wall tool or various other things.

[Tom W.]

34 minutes ago, line-weight said:

so I'm not sure what the benefit would be in making it something separate.

I’m not saying it would be beneficial, I just meant from a practical/engineering point of view: what we could reasonably expect VW to achieve. But I have no idea how hard or easy it would be. Perhaps someone like @Matt Panzer could comment…? After all, standard walls + curtain walls are two distinct tools because they operate in completely different ways + it strikes me that we’re asking for a single tool that does both things (which might be a tall order).

Edited April 12 by Tom W.

[Matt Panzer]

10 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

I’m not saying it would be beneficial, I just meant from a practical/engineering point of view: what we could reasonably expect VW to achieve. But I have no idea how hard or easy it would be. Perhaps someone like @Matt Panzer could comment…? After all, standard walls + curtain walls are two distinct tools because they operate in completely different ways + it strikes me that we’re asking for a single tool that does both things.

 

We have previously discussed the idea to integrating framing and other repetitive objects into walls, slabs, and roofs but have not explored details of how this might work.  I do think it makes good sense to have it integrated so the framing is automatically when changes are made.  Of course, we would have to take performance implications and user interaction (for editing framing) into account.  While this is not something we're actively exploring, I'm sure we'll be revisiting the idea in the future.