How to create angles with a lean?

[suz]

Hi team,

 

I usually just extrude shapes and use subtract tool to create angles - but it's not so efficient.

What ways do you suggest creating attached shapes?

They would need to have a lean to them for my current project.

 

Any help would be much much appreciated.

 

Thanks

Suz

 

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Do they require a thickness?  There are many ways to do this.

[suz]

Yes I require a thickness for sure!

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

HI Suz,

There are quite a few way to do this.  Someone else may chime in.

 

 For starters, try this.  Put 3D locus points in 3D space to define the geometry, for example, 3 points for a triangle.  Move them into position.  Then take the 3D polygon tool and pick off those points to make a triangle.  Then use the "shell tool" for a thickness.  

The image below shows the progression.

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

Or try Taper Face tool on an Extrude. Use Split Tool in Front/Side view to slice off facets. Then use Shell Tool to hollow out.

[suz]

1 hour ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

HI Suz,

There are quite a few way to do this.  Someone else may chime in.

 

 For starters, try this.  Put 3D locus points in 3D space to define the geometry, for example, 3 points for a triangle.  Move them into position.  Then take the 3D polygon tool and pick off those points to make a triangle.  Then use the "shell tool" for a thickness.  

The image below shows the progression.

 

 

 

 

Makes sense thank you. - although connecting it to adjacent angled walls seems impossible as per the examples. It's easy to do in sketch up but how do you do it continuously? 

[suz]

52 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Or try Taper Face tool on an Extrude. Use Split Tool in Front/Side view to slice off facets. Then use Shell Tool to hollow out.

interesting and thank you! although i wasnt able to follow just from text! 

[Tom W.]

7 minutes ago, suz said:

interesting and thank you! although i wasnt able to follow just from text! 

 

Oops does this help:

 

[line-weight]

You are right that this is not entirely straightforward in Vectorworks, if you want something that's a series of connected flat planes at different angles that have a thickness.

 

The best way probably depends a bit on how they are going to be made (because that determines things like, how thick are they, are the edges at right angles to the faces, how are they connected and how much detail do the drawings actually need to show).

 

Also, it depends on how much you want to adjust and tweak before finalising.

 

I would tend to draw them as a series of 3d polygons to start with. Draw the first one, then draw the next one so one of its edges exactly matches one of the first one's edges, and so on. So you end up with a sort of psuedo-mesh.

 

Vectorworks (as far as I know) doesn't really do true meshes, where you can move a vertex and pull all of the adjacent faces. Hence why I call it a pseudo mesh - you can tweak it about a lot but you have to adjust each polygon individually.

 

It's converting it to a series of faces with thicknesses that is the point where it then becomes somewhat frozen, because it's then very difficult to go back to the original mesh geometry to change anything.

 

Giving the faces a thickness can be done with the shell tool, but you might not like the way it deals with some of the edge-junctions. Or you might not be too fussy.

 

There may be some method that involves converting to a subdivision object, giving you a bit more control over subsequent edits. I am not really a subdivision expert.

 

Useful to know is that you can perform an "add solids" operation on multiple connected 3d polygons, and it will join them together into a single object, meaning that operations like offsets or shell have different & possibly preferable results compared to what would happen if they are left as individual polygons.

 

It might be that it's something best to model in another application and then import the geometry to VW, if it's the case that the other application lets you do more non-destructive editing on the geometry.

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by line-weight

[Tom W.]

42 minutes ago, suz said:

interesting and thank you! although i wasnt able to follow just from text! 

 

Also I just used Shell Solid on one face (the underside) but you can shift-select more than one face before running the command to create open-sided shapes like in your first screenshot.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

1 hour ago, Tom W. said:

Or try Taper Face tool on an Extrude

That was interesting and I learned something today.   I tend not to pay attention to new tools as I am set in my ways.  Never too old to learn.

 

Paul

[zoomer]

In the past I would have done that with triangular 3D Polygons

(or just cutting from a large rectangle)

I would start this from 2D in Layer Plane. Later moving Vertices in X.

 

The Problem with kose 3D Polygons is that elevating a single corner

means to do it for each touching Polygon again one by one.

Maybe grouping these into a Mesh before editing would help.

 

After design is finished I would give it a thickness.

 

 

I think today I would use SubD.

Starting with a large rectangle, tessellating by adding Edges,

switching all Vertices and Edges to "hard edged" mode,

moving Vertices around in 3D, deleting or creating Faces.

When design phase ended,

export as Generic Solid,

Thicken.

Edited August 1, 2023 by zoomer

[suz]

WOW thanks so much ! super helpful!

 

S

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

4 minutes ago, zoomer said:

I think today I would use SubD.

This is "go to school day for me."  Like my reply to Tom, I don't use a lot of Tools and Subdivsion is one, but if you could make a video of this, I would like to watch.

 

regards...Paul

[zoomer]

I mean SubD in a way that like in this case I am not interested in any Subdivision

in the common way at all.

(Used for complex (free formed organic) Meshes where SubD Tools are only

there to switch back to a simpler control cage for editing control)

Basically we want a quite simple hard edged Mesh object here.

 

But VW SubD Tool because it offers the best control in VW (with its 3D Gizmo)

to edit on vertex and edge level in all 3 axis .....

[line-weight]

8 minutes ago, zoomer said:

Thicken.

How would you do this step though?

[zoomer]

5 minutes ago, line-weight said:

How would you do this step though?

 

I am a bit out of training 😉

 

Same as not sure for "extruding" 3D Polygons possible or not and needing a workaround ....

(PushPull ?)

But I once had to make a crumpled paper like looking wall cover and somehow it was 3D at the end.

 

I also would need to exercise "Thicken" of flat generic solids in VW again.

A hurdle for me was always that you had to select one or more faces for opening(s).

Which isn't wanted in this case ....

(AFAIR it was also possible to not select any face for opening !?

or a workaround needed) 

 

 

[line-weight]

20 minutes ago, zoomer said:

 

I am a bit out of training 😉

 

Same as not sure for "extruding" 3D Polygons possible or not and needing a workaround ....

(PushPull ?)

But I once had to make a crumpled paper like looking wall cover and somehow it was 3D at the end.

 

I also would need to exercise "Thicken" of flat generic solids in VW again.

A hurdle for me was always that you had to select one or more faces for opening(s).

Which isn't wanted in this case ....

(AFAIR it was also possible to not select any face for opening !?

or a workaround needed) 

 

 

yeah, I am also not too sure, and i think it's the case that you have to select all the faces individually, a bit like I have done in the screen recording above ^^ and then you get messy edges along the top and bottom. It can all be fixed of course, but could be tedious on large objects.

 

If I was modelling something that would be made from, for example, welded-together 10mm thick steel plates, then I might be tempted just not to thicken the model, leave it as flat planes and represent it in section drawings using a thick line. If it had to be made up from a skinned timber-frame, though, then I would need a different strategy. Might even think about using "roof face" objects, much as I hate them.

[zoomer]

Ouch,

I meanwhile had a pretty idealized imagination of VW's Toolset.

Now that I started playing a bit,

I constantly ran into all these VW caveats - can't use such object with this tool,

refuse to convert 2D Polygons to generic Solid, can't delete or weld Vertices

in VW SubD, .....

 

I feel like a complete noob.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by zoomer

[Jeff Prince]

There are a lot of good ways to do this in VWX or Rhino, it depends on if you are documenting something that is already figured out or designing and developing the form.

If the latter, SubD with iteration set to 0 is a quick and easy way to make these shapes.  I find it best to use SubD when I'm designing something and sculpting it as I go since it's essentially a parametric mesh or digital clay.  Iteration 0 keeps it planar, which works for @suz's project.

 

The SubD editor has a provision for extruding, but I prefer to make a rectangle, extrude it, and convert it to a SubD.  I can then add creases and combine vertices to create the form.  It's easier if you break the shapes down into simple pieces and combine them rather than try to do an element as one continuous SubD.

 

Although, it's possible to go crazy with them...

 

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/98446-subdivision-challenge/#comment-444459

 

I posted a bunch of useful information about Rhino SubD on this thread, if you ignore the naysayer.

 

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/107517-vectorworks-vs-rhino-3d-vs-home-depot/#comment-468312

 

 

It took me longer to write this post than to make the attached example, which is pretty typical with SubD 🙂

[line-weight]

1 hour ago, jeff prince said:

make a rectangle, extrude it, and convert it to a SubD.  I can then add creases and combine vertices to create the form.

 

Do you mean you can use it to take a flat thing with a thickness, and then make a fold in it? How do you go about that?

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

6 hours ago, suz said:

What ways do you suggest creating attached shapes?

Hi Suz,

It appears this thread has lost sight of your problem and moved onto something else.  Go with the 3D polygons whichever way works for you.  It uses the "KIS" principle,
"Keep it simple".  In general that is simply good advice.  Each of us has their own methods of working and whatever works for you.

 

Keep us posted.

 

regards.....Paul

[zoomer]

Well,

after playing with it, I have to admit that for me VW SubD is not as enjoyable as I thought.

And it seems to hate Triangles and wants Quads only.

 

Working with Meshes in VW is much worse as I thought to remember from the past.

What is still in there is that Meshes still unwanted get selected when you just come

close with a Selection Marquee (without holding ALT !)

 

I think my memories about working with 2D/3D Faces, Polygons and Meshes in VW

was somehow mixed up with my past Modo or C4D experiences.

So VW thanks for pushing me to Blender.

I am not used to Blender but I found all needed tools and workflows pretty easily.

 

In this case I started with a Plane Object,

extruded some edges to extend that object in various directions,

triangulated it by adding new internal edges by connecting vertices.

Then moved some Vertices around to my liking.

(Hard to blindly pull around when you have no design intention or content 🙂 )

Finally I just added an Extrude Modifier. Means that I could go back editing the

geometry as much as I want without losing my e.g. 24 mm Extrusion for plywood

or such things.

 

 

 

Could be brought over to VW by a 3D Export like OBJ or as an IFC.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by zoomer

[Jeff Prince]

47 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

Do you mean you can use it to take a flat thing with a thickness, and then make a fold in it? How do you go about that?

Yes, Edit Subdivision, Add Edge.

if the object has thickened, you’ll have to add an edge for each face, typically.

 

[zoomer]

I find it hard to estimate such geometry in a Drawing Window.

 

I think I would start designing from a top plan view.

Maybe underlay a few perspective or side view hand sketches.

Once the parameters are all set,

it may be tedious but of course you can create that geometry in VW.

 

I just don't think it is a pleasure to "develop" such a design with 3D geometry

in VW.