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rexwexford

co-ordinates internal origin and user origns help!

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Hello all, 

 

Could someone please explain to me what is best practice for managing a file which will have several DWG imports in - e.g survey,  Highway proposals and landscape architects drawing etc from various consultants. 

 

I have found some old threads on this question but nothing that seems to really clarify my question. 

 

As I understand it, it is a bad idea to have your user origin a long way away from the internal origin (0,0) I have read it is best to set all files with a vectorworks internal origin close to the objects within their separate files. 

 

as demonstrated here in this tutorial

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWP7_bmOwFE

 

what I don't understand is, how on earth does collaboration work between different consultants if we are amending the user origin to work within our office? At present, whenever I am sending a file of ours to the landscape architect, they are finding it miles out of position. 

 

I come from an autocad background so perhaps I am being a bit of a dinosaur but I am more comfortable with everyone sharing a confirmed reference point (e.g 0,0)

 

some help would be greatly appreciated on 

 

how do i import the files so they are to world coordinates?

How do i then send my file to others, so that it will align with their document

 

Many thanks 

 

edit - 

 

I should clarify - it is the collaboration aspect I am having particular difficulty with - i want to be able to send a file back and forth and it always come in the same place for both parties. 

 

Thanks again

 

 

 

Edited by rexwexford
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New attempt to answer the question

@rexwexford The coordinate options are similar to  AutoCAD

Internal Origin = WCS in AutoCAD

User Origin = UCS in AutoCAD

 

In your case you basically have two options you can use upon initial import of DWG files.

1 (first option in import dialog) "Center first import, align all subsequent imports: This will import the drawing with its center at the Internal Origin (WCS) and will shift the User Origin (UCS) to keep the x/y coordinates of your objects the same. This is to be used for the first drawing of a set of imported dwgs. If you import one dwg only then for subsequent dwg imports at a later time you should then select the 3rd option (Align with User Origin)

 

2. (last option in import dialog): "Align with Internal Origin"

This will cause the drawing's origin to be at the internal origin (WCS) of Vectorworks and will not shift the user origin. (i.e. keep the user origin aligned with the internal origin)

 

In my experience, if you are working with georeferenced files and/or XREFs then the "align with internal origin" is strongly preferred to avoid issues with content shifting and ending up at incorrect locations.

In the past it was recommended to have the drawing contents near the internal origin, but since VW2016 I haven't noticed much of a difference if it is or at 500+ km from internal origins (using GIS data). Of course it depends a bit on the content of the drawings, so if you do experience issues then you could still reimport using the first option as described above.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that if in AutoCAd/dwg file the UCS is not aligned with the WCS the import of the dwg file may seem erratic at times. I've noticed that Vectorworks tends to import the dwg file based on its WCS and not necessarily on its UCS. So if you do experience strange things upon import with coordinates you may want to check the UCS in the DWG file and if necessary reposition the drawing so that the UCS and WCS align.

It are for things like this that Align with Internal origin is my default for importing DWG files as it has the smallest chance for messing up coordinates.

 

Edited by Art V

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Thanks for your prompt reply and thanks for autocad speak! I am still a bit confused though. 

 

(FYI the nature of the drawing is a development of 40 houses and associated landscaping, which needs to be coordinated with several phases of additional developments by others. just so you get an idea of scale)


in this instance - I have a Landscape drawing from a consultant and then several files that our office has produced which we would like referenced alongside the landscape drawing, naturally there is back and forth between us and them as the design evolves. 

 

the second option "align with internal origin" sounds like what i would be most comfortable with, but i keep reading that i will experience issues like this. 

 

so If i try the first option and follow your helpful guide i dont have much luck .

 

1) step one import as 'Center first import, align all subsequent imports'

 

and then import the same file again as step 2 (to double check)

2) import subsequent files as the third option 'Align with User Origin'

 

It comes in in a different place to the first file! surely it should overlay them?  

 

appreciate your help with this 

 

the DWG has the yellow circle lit up in the top right of the rulers lit up when i import it, could this mean anything? 

 

thanks

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1 hour ago, Art V said:

2. (last option in import dialog): "Align with Internal Origin"

This will cause the drawing's origin to be at the internal origin (WCS) of Vectorworks and will not shift the user origin. (i.e. keep the user origin aligned with the internal origin)

 

In my experience, if you are working with georeferenced files and/or XREFs then the "align with internal origin" is strongly preferred to avoid issues with content shifting and ending up at incorrect locations.

In the past it was recommended to have the drawing contents near the internal origin, but since VW2016 I haven't noticed much of a difference if it is or at 500+ km from internal origins (using GIS data). Of course it depends a bit on the content of the drawings, so if you do experience issues then you could still reimport using the first option as described above.

 

(For Files with geometry far from origin)

I use "Align with internal Origin" option only for a first import to examine

the pure file and geometry location.

 

I am not sure but think such import will work only if you use the VW "georeference"

option for the File or Layers.

Without that, from all I experienced or repeatedly see from other users, having

geometry NOT near internal origin is just forbidden in VW. Display or geometrical

problems make working with such a file nearly impossible.

 

The other option of auto centering imports to internal origin (for 1st import)

is ok for most users. No VW problems and by the User Origin Shift exports will

keep original position.

 

Very important is that all related Files use the same User Origin Shift before

exchanging any geometry between these Files.

(I think dragNdrop or VW imports between VW Files use again the Internal Origin

and later User Origin Shifts will not shift the geometry, at least not the way you

would expect and you would have to correct geometry location manually)

 

 

It is just me who doesn't like Auto Centering Imports because these are

a) totally arbitrary

and

b) I want the "drawing" origin, coordinates and ruler numbers oriented to my building !

 

So I want a first DWG "Align with internal Origin" Test,

look for a useful reference point or grid axes crossing if available and note its coordinates.

And for my final import file, I set a User Origin Shift with "negative" values of that

reference point - before I import "Aligned with User Origin".

This way a special and defined Origin matches the Internal Origin.

 

This solves

a) geometry near internal origin and no VW problems + correct Export location

but I still miss

b) Being able to work with coordinates from my "building" origin.

 

 

If I could comfortably switch to a 3rd "Working/Building" Origin, similar to a UCS,

I would also go the easiest and recommended import way :

Center First Import and align following imports to (auto) shifted User Origin.

 

In most cases I am lucky and happy to be free of need to re-export at correct locations though,

so I just shift the Import Geometry manually to my "Building Origin"

 

 

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3 hours ago, rexwexford said:

so If i try the first option and follow your helpful guide i dont have much luck .

 

1) step one import as 'Center first import, align all subsequent imports'

 

and then import the same file again as step 2 (to double check)

2) import subsequent files as the third option 'Align with User Origin' 

 

It comes in in a different place to the first file! surely it should overlay them?  

Step 1 does move the user origin (UCS) away from the internal origin (WCS).  Any following import at a later moment should use the 3rd option of the dialog (Align with user origin, i.e. align origins of the imports with the UCS origin), if you don't it will end up at the wrong place.

 

Importing the same drawing as step 2 will align its origin with the WCS origin and not with the UCS origin and will therefore end up  at a different place.

 

You have to use either Step 1 and for any next imports not simultaneous with the first imported drawing you should use the option "align with user origin" as that is you reference 0,0 from then on.

 

OR you use Step 2 (align with internal origin) for all drawings you import (i.e. align all origins with the WCS).

 

Do not mix these two import methods within the same vectorworks file, as that will mess up things as you already noticed.

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4 hours ago, rexwexford said:

the DWG has the yellow circle lit up in the top right of the rulers lit up when i import it, could this mean anything? 

If the yellow circle is lit up it means the user origin (UCS) is not aligned with internal origin (WCS).  Or, if it is not lit up then the UCS and WCS are the same to say it in AutoCAD speak.

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ok chaps thanks for both of your replies!

 

much appreciated. I believe I have it working now. It seems aligned between files and pasting the coordinates into the web finds my site. Will post back if I have any issues when returning the files to the landscape architect

 

thanks again

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It is just me who doesn't like Auto Centering Imports because these are

a) totally arbitrary

and

b) I want the "drawing" origin, coordinates and ruler numbers oriented to my building !

 

Yeah I think this throws me too, doesnt that current method assume that the DWG is always correct? and makes it hard to compare reference points to align in advance of importing

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Yes, Center first with Auto User Origin Shift + Align further imports to User Origin

makes later DWG Exports correct.

 

But when I watch my Walls in OIP it doesn't help for me when it shows a

X=451,287.xxxxxxxx m location when I want to check instead if it is a

X=7.20000 m = on building axis, opposed to a 7.1900003897 m,

meaning I drew inaccurately.

 

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