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digitalcarbon

Bug Report - The future is here!

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11 minutes ago, Art V said:


It has some nice features that I think VW could copy,

 

As I said ist has 80% of what I miss or liked to be changed in VW,

Or 60% of what I miss in B– Thing is in VW.

That would be gorgous of course.

 

Like mixing Modo with C4D.

Garbadge out, better in :D

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I disagree a bit with the cloud push here, as this is also possible with regular computer installed software that can connect to the internet. Granted, VW is not written in such a way that it does this, but it is technically possible to do this with a program that is locally installed on a computer, even if it are incremental additions, but it would require a major rewrite of the VW code.

That being said, you don't want your software to be updated just before a deadline only to find something got seriously broken. At least with a local install and SP updates you can revert to the situation before the last update. With software that is fully cloud bases you're at the mercy of the developer. Some developers will be very good at testing before release, some won't.  Even Microsoft and Google managed to mess up things with their cloud stuff from time to time.

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13 hours ago, Art V said:

find something got seriously broken

yes that is something to think about.

 

so far nothing serious happened yet but i did notice that the sheet scale after one release went wonky.

before it was 1:8

after it was 0.125:1

 

and it was messed up on all 50 sheets.

 

my confidence to not worry about it comes from the fact that they have created an environment that does not seem to create a dead-line driven release date tied into a big hyped up promotional thing.

that causes people to push to release things that may not be ready.  (then you have this big decision WHEN am i going to convert the entire office to the new update 2017 to 2018?)

vs

(I'm assuming) only release when you are ready environment.  no one is pushing 

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14 hours ago, Art V said:

That being said, you don't want your software to be updated just before a deadline only to find something got seriously broken.

 

True enough but that fear validly comes from a desktop software paradigm.

 

I would be far more confident of incremental software updates released on the basis that they're ready rather than major updates released on because an annual release day has arrived.

 

In principle there's also not much stopping a cloud-based software provider from offering the ability to choose which version you log into.

Edited by Christiaan

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14 hours ago, Art V said:

[incremental software updating] is also possible with regular computer installed software that can connect to the internet.

 

But there would still be friction for the user. Even if it could be done in the background with no user interaction there would still be the possibility that the user has to manage some process if the update goes wrong. With cloud-based incremental updates there is always zero management friction for the user.

 

Desktop software developers could learn from cloud-based software and integrate some of advantages, but it's the many little things that add up to the whole that they'll never be able to fully implement.

Edited by Christiaan

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1 hour ago, digitalcarbon said:

my confidence to not worry about it comes from the fact that they have created an environment that does not seem to create a dead-line driven release date tied into a big hyped up promotional thing.

that causes people to push to release things that may not be ready.  (then you have this big decision WHEN am i going to convert the entire office to the new update 2017 to 2018?)

vs

(I'm assuming) only release when you are ready environment.  no one is pushing 

 

I totally agree with that one IF the cloud company is not thinking along a dead-line driven release schedule (some cloud companies still do that). I'd rather have VW slow down releasing new features until fully tested than to rush to meet a deadline (and to some extent they do axe features from a release schedule if they are not yet ready and include them later).

 

52 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

But there would still be friction for the user. Even if it could be done in the background with no user interaction there would still be the possibility that the user has to manage some process if the update goes wrong. With cloud-based incremental updates there is always zero management friction for the user.

 

Desktop software developers could learn from cloud-based software and integrate some of advantages, but it's the many little things that add up to the whole that they'll never be able to fully implement.

This will always be the case for any desktop/laptop as the software vendor (cloud based or not) cannot control the configuration of the client's computer. Cloud-based companies can control the hardware to a T, but that in a way also creates less flexibility on the user's end. This is something that will always be an issue for desktop vs cloud.

 

A compromise could be the use of containers (e.g. like Docker, Citrix etc.) where you can install an instance of the cloud software running within its own box on your computer without having to rely on your OS (somewhat similar to virtualization), and this could also allow you to work offline as well for a while, albeit without receiving updates until you update the instance.
I've heard through the grapevines that this is a concept that Autodesk is/was considering for the future for their AutoCAD line of products at some point.

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2 minutes ago, Art V said:

IF the cloud company is not thinking along a dead-line driven release schedule

yes a big big assumption on my part

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im getting the feeling that there is a "Tyranny of numbers" starting to develop...

 

when any system (computer wire, Roads/Highways etc) starts to get large then the maintenance of the original system (which was ok when it was small) gets out of control.

 

then people start to think of a way around all that management.  (Ex: US Interstate System or Integrated circuits)

 

So if the entire life cycle of a building is to be recorded all in 3d,4d,5d,6d etc then we do not have time to mange updates etc

 

including fussing about my Hardware & OS specs...

 

"It runs in your browser"  good enough for me....

 

i will buy a chrome book and not a Mac Pro $$$$

Edited by digitalcarbon

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56 minutes ago, Art V said:

This will always be the case for any desktop/laptop as the software vendor (cloud based or not) cannot control the configuration of the client's computer.

 

But where is the software management friction for a cloud-based CAD user?

 

56 minutes ago, Art V said:

Cloud-based companies can control the hardware to a T, but that in a way also creates less flexibility on the user's end.

 

But computers that can drive CAD in a web browser far outweigh computers that can drive Vectorworks etc.

Edited by Christiaan

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Hmmh, thin clients.

I could imagine to access VW from a standard iMac via 10 Gb LAN,

while VW itself runs from a high specced Windows(or Linux) Workstation.

 

Should be a separate special Browser though,

so that my timings and invoice software is still able to differ if I am working

or just wasting time on a CAD Forum :)

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5 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

equivalent to workgroup referencing

 

if i understand you correctly Onshape has the ability to:

 

1. have many people in one "file"

think of many people in same VW file all working but w/o any permissions except edit or not edit.

 

2. you can have a Master library and ref in parts to your current project (as many libraries as you want)

 

 

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a part from my personal library..."referenced" in

they call it "linked" (see the chain?)

 

5a6215cd0bc35_ScreenShot2018-01-19at10_58_28AM.thumb.png.5669c23a62ebec9edbe9d69acc8dbe4e.png

 

 

Edited by digitalcarbon

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As far as I understand, B-Thing does similar.

2 users access the same file.

there is kind of versioning system built into DWG.

When you open the file, you can do a 3D comparison and it will show all Versions

in different color highlighting. You can choose to accept one version or reject

and clean up.

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Just now, digitalcarbon said:

1. have many people in one "file"

think of many people in same VW file all working but w/o any permissions except edit or not edit.

 

That's more akin to Project Sharing.

 

1 minute ago, digitalcarbon said:

2. you can have a Master library and ref in parts to your current project (as many libraries as you want)

 

This is probably more like WGRing.

 

This is the part of Vectorworks that has caused me the most problems over the years, right up to this very day. I'm curious if this is a part of Onshape that can cause problems?

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Just to be clear if i had to choose one or the other i would choose VW because i can do just about anything in VW 

Including fab shop drawings....but if you have a lot of shop drawings and want to not loose control of your design...

 

that is why i got Onshape....we lost control of the shop drawings on a big project and could not get anyone to adjust anything.

 

So now we control the drawings and sub contractors can get an Onshape account to review & comment but not mess with.

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i use WGR as my main way to get my Libraries into my files. its my major work horse 

 

it crashes alot...something like after 3 updates it will crash... every time

 

Project sharing...not so much 

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dc, I think the issue has more to do with engineering standards and corporate practices than it does with how the software is delivered or where it is installed.  The cloud is, IMHO, a much-too-hyped magic solution.  The big advantage is that you can use your workstation from any internet-connected location the same way computer "terminals" used to be used when we had mainframes.  The big disadvantages outweigh that: 1) the user does not control and own the software, totally dependent on the cloud server's security, availability, and you have to pay the rent, and 2) limited bandwidth - which increases your dependence on the cloud server because you have to save files to the server and keep them there instead of on your own computer.  We should be very afraid of such a technology model.

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I just asked one of my contractors, who is Chinese, about "who is the first to eat the crab."  He had never heard of it, so I still don't know what that means!

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1 hour ago, zoomer said:

2 users access the same file.

 

No, separate Files.

But the comparison, as I said.

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1 hour ago, P Retondo said:

"who is the first to eat the crab."

 

it means that someone always needs to go first...

 

the first to eat the crab is the first person to see if it is safe to eat.

 

Dr Jiang Mianheng said it in a talk and said it was a Chinese saying

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2 hours ago, P Retondo said:

The cloud is, IMHO, a much-too-hyped magic solution.

 

I didn't realise it was hyped. I'm just looking at Onshape and thinking that's how I want my CAD to work.

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