Re: BIM v2

[Christiaan]

This is in response to:

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=120388#Post120388

Jeffrey, my comments were primarily concerned with aiding Brian's understanding of where we all stand with current CAD/BIM technology and working in teams, as that was part of his question.

My comments are completely in keeping with my previous feedback to NNA on this forum:

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=12&Number=114915

I would suggest yourself and NNA have a good think about the potential consequences before taking steps to purge discussion of competing technologies from this forum.

Please see my response to your comments on another thread:

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=120396

[CipesDesign]

Dear Christiaan & NNA, I agree with what Christiaan has said. Healthy and open discourse regarding the pros and cons or comparative functionality of VW's and other CAD platforms is needed. Most of us here on the forum will extoll the virtues of VW's, as we are long time, loyal users. When we suggest that VW's might benefit from a "function like (name that software) has", it is only to make VW's better.

Please consider this!

Peter

[Stan Rostas]

Open discourse is the only way to discover what one needs to improve. By eliminating this topic of conversation says more about what Vectorworks can and can not do than anything they might say.

This is a community board/blog not a marketing board/blog.

Are any of the discussions on BIM or Teamwork to the liking of the purveyors of these boards, or are they all grimacing from the commentary?

Time will tell if the well is dry.

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

Et al,

I only want to make sure that new users to the forum aren't beset with so much second-guessing about Vectorworks, that they consider dropping the platform without ever trying to master it and realize the capabilities and potential. I encourage a healthy BIM discussion, but many times everyone focuses on the WRONG things, talking past each other and the real issues and it simply "devolves" into a feature-by-feature comparison of different products.

As I said, VW is NOT BIM, in and of itself. But neither is Revit or ArchiCAD. No single piece of software is. However, we are all BIM tools. Users must also recognize that Solibri Model Viewer/Checker, Onuma Planning System, Tekla, SCIA, and Allplan are all BIM tools.

When the conversation is reduced to feature-by-feature comparison, NOBODY wins. All these platforms rely on different foundational technologies to do different things in different ways. In some cases they overlap by attempting to replicate "common" tools, functions, and features. But how they get there, based on their underlying technology is ALWAYS going to be different.

There is nothing wrong with that. Just like many people have different ways of designing and practicing architecture, software solutions are always going to have different technological ways of solving the problems of users' needs and goals. Just like many people have different, tight-gripped opinions of political views, different software will have different philosophical foundations for how the technology is built, presented, and implemented.

If you fault one, though, you have to admit it is possible to fault all, in principle. You can disagree with the way an application works from your point of view, but that POV is NOT an absolute and is subject to the same scrutiny and skepticism as the original critique.

I would like to see the discussion of BIM and Vectorworks be more PRODUCTIVE on this Community Board and less DESTRUCTIVE. I am more than happy to engage the users on how to use the current set of tools to do use VW as a BIM tool, effectively and successfully. Yes, it is possible. For everyone of you who complains or dismisses VW, there are many of your professional peers who are moving forward and using VW as a BIM tool.

Vectorworks keeps evolving, doesn't it? Is 2009 not more capable than it was in v10? There have always been evolutions and revolutions to the overall app and inside the app. Just look at the "What's New" documents for the past 4 versions. Id say that's a lot of change in 5 years.

Many times everyones' arguments tend to accuse VW of being "stuck" or incapable of changing, either overtly or covertly.

I cry "Bogus!!!!!" to everyone of those claims.

While the development process and messaging/marketing of that process is not as apparently "open" as some of our larger competitiors may lead you believe, it does happen

to be a very vigorous process. VW does change. Problems get solved. Some issues take longer than others because the foundational technology needed to solve them needs to be changed. Some problems take longer to solve them the right way, not just the fast, easy, and often "kludgy" way.

Just ask Mr. Cipes, a VW beta-tester, about this (without violating his NDA, of course). He has seen many "big" things happen from version to version, with a little more "behind-the-scenes" POV. During testing he sees how much wrangling goes on with the technology to solve issues. I'm confident that, many times, he has been surprised by the features that emerge in the early betas. He and his fellow beta testers are also part of the vetting and design process to varying degrees. They all have different opinions on what is important and when, but they do have input that is an effective part of the process.

None of your collective desires are trivial. But neither is the work in order to meet those demands. Again, I must implore that, just because it may not be immediately apparent in a new version or service pack, your issues are in the hands of people trying to figure out the best way to fundamentally solve the problem, not just "patch it" and move on until it unravels again.

Everyone at NNA wants VW to grow and evolve and serve our customers better, never think that isn't true. All I ask is that you step back and consider that while engineering and development occur to solve the issues you have all highlighted over the years, that you use this forum to garner knowledge and support each other to use the tools at hand to accomplish the tasks at hand.

I am always amazed by how many of the more advanced users are able to effectively help new users, without direct intervention of NNA staff, on this board. Many of them have used VW for years and many versions and understand that things do change over time, you just have to be patient. Many of them are also beta-testers and see a little more "behind the curtain", gaining a further understanding of how there answers today may effect the problems/solutions of tomorrow.

We can talk about how to use VW as a BIM tool effectively. Along the way, we'll highlight shortcomings, but, I also hope, highlight things we do better than anyone else (those things are there, DON'T take them for granted). But I need the conversations, the questions, the concerns, to be open and accesible, NOT immediately dismissive and defiant.

I can help show you VW, today, as a BIM tool. Together, we'll help make it a better BIM tool for tomorrow.

[gmm18]

Dear Christiaan & NNA, I agree with what Christiaan has said. Healthy and open discourse regarding the pros and cons or comparative functionality of VW's and other CAD platforms is needed. Most of us here on the forum will extoll the virtues of VW's, as we are long time, loyal users. When we suggest that VW's might benefit from a "function like (name that software) has", it is only to make VW's better.

Please consider this!

Peter

I completely agree with Peter in this matter.

Jeffrey, please take note, your recent activity/posts have been quite UNproductive,

especially this long winded post above, despite your best intentions I am sure.

Maybe right before you post something like that you should re-read it and delete 90% of it. And think twice before posting it in every thread...

Thanks,

g

Edited March 21, 2009 by gmm18

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

g,

Admittedly things have spiraled out of control.

I don't disagree with Christiaan and Peter, either, in principle.

But, I think the discussions of BIM have to get beyond marketing hype and into better understanding of how things work and can work today, in VW, even when using our competition as a reference, while prodding for improvements for tomorrow. But I don't think it's fair to outright dismiss VW as BIM tool over differences with the competition.

There is a VW way to do BIM and it works. It is different than our competition, in some cases, but very similar, in others.