VW 2009 And Other Design Tools - Your Thoughts

[Linicks]

All,

I have been evaluating various design tools for my personal Architectural projects. They are typically small residential designs for myself every couple of years or so. I've attempted to use tools like Punch3d and others, with great amounts of frustration. With a background in Autocad, and mechanical drafting I'm used to having more control over my design tools, so I made the decision to purchase a real design tool. Currently VectorWorks 2009(designer), Revit 2009, ArchiCad 12, and Chief Architect X2 have made it on the list. Of these CA X2, and VW 09 have made it to the top of the list because of there comprehensive ability to do Architectural, Landscape, Lighting, and Visualization design. CA X2 seems to have everything that's needed, but still feels a little light weight compared to VW 09. VW 09 seems to be very powerful, but the customer service to this point has been marginal at best. The sales rep. that I'm dealing with has made promises and hasn't delivered on any of them in addition to giving me bad information. In contrast the CA team has been extremely helpful and have been on the spot. I wounder if this poor customer service is an isolated case or a sign of a large company that's lost its focus on its customer.

I would appreciate any insights into these products and how they compare.

Many Thanks!

--Nick

[islandmon]

Please be patient ...

at the moment I'm on the phone with techsupport in Mumbai discussing a comprehensive comparison

between Cold Fusion, PHP, Eclipse, Drupal, Joomla and Wordpress : )

[J Lucas]

I have been using VW for about a year and a half. I have experienced outstanding sales and tech support. VW is very powerful and flexible. It will take some concentrated effort to learn the ins and outs, and take advantage of its most power features. Like you, I did a comparison of similar cad programs on the market. After diving into VW I haven't looked back.

Edited March 11, 2009 by J Lucas

[billtheia]

I made the switch from ACAD to VW roughly 18 months ago. I also considered the other programs you mentioned and felt like CA was "light weight" by comparison.

VW is not perfect. There are glitches, holes, and bugs, but, on the whole, I think that it offers the greatest "bang for the buck."

Transition from ACAD was painful at times but I feel like I've been able to wring a great deal more out of VW than I ever did out of ACAD.

My experience with tech and sales support has been quite good. The sales guy I've dealt with is Matt Jurick - he's been quite responsive and honest (as far as I know.) Before I purchased VW, Matt set up a call with a sales support engineer familiar with ACAD to help me understand the differences and similarities between the products.

I'd get evaluation copies of the programs you are considering and try and actually DO a small project on each. It's really the only way to evaluate the "productivity enhancers" and uncover the "show stoppers."

Good luck.

[mr. iagea]

Before I committed to Vectorworks, I primarily considered it and one other app: ArchiCAD. I am a devoted Mac user (although I do suffer through using Windows when I have to), and I wanted an app that preferably was designed as a Mac application from or near the beginning of its life cycle. Both of these fit that bill. I also considered price as well as how the app appeared to be set to scale itself in an industry that is quite dynamic, considering the baby shoes that BIM software finds itself in at the moment.

ArchiCAD is quite powerful, and I have several architect friends who use it and are quite pleased with it. I have a fully-operational evaluation copy of version 12, as well as a full group of training files, which are very comprehensive (more so than VW's training files. Sorry, NNA, truth is truth), all free. Vectorworks is also quite powerful, and capable of excellent results, once the time is taken to learn the software and the ways to get the desired results.

Ultimately I selected VW back in early 2008 because of the price and what it can do for that price. As has been indicated plenty of times in this forum, by myself and others, VW has plenty of bugs and idiosyncrasies. I feel these are related primarily to its interface and operability being designed by what seems like engineers, rather than by interface designers. ArchiCAD's interface and functionality is more...well, architect-like in that it seems geared towards creating buildings and the documents that go along with that process. It seems centered around virtual buildings and many of the more standard aspects of construction drawings are either done automatically (with options to alter, of course). With VW, you must know what and where and how and why and when, and where to input that data (often in several locations before the settings will truly apply) and even then, those aspects can be somewhat confusing. That said, once one understands this, the software can do quite a lot. VW makes no assumptions about what you're trying to build, whereas ArchiCAD does (and many times, rightly so). So, in truth, had I felt as though I had a bit more money to spend at the time, I probably would have gone with ArchiCAD. But that said, I do like the improvements in Vectorworks 2009. It feels more stable to me, and I have learned how to make it do what I want it to, even though the process feels somewhat like trying to convince an impetuous kid to just be cool and take fewer prisoners. This forum has been an incredible help to me in my learning process.

If you have not yet purchased, I echo Bill's suggestion and highly recommend that you download evaluation copies of any app you're considering, as well as training files. Go through the tutorials, and then dream up a small project and try to build it using each app. Which one feels easier to use? Which one seems the most invisible? Intuitive? Which one does what you need it to without making you tear your hair out? Remember that you may consider cost now, but a bad application will cost you more in lost time than a well-designed slightly more expensive one. Consider also that if you learn to enjoy the process BECAUSE of the software, your one or two a year projects could grow to more. Decide which will fit your needs and budget best. ArchiCAD is over twice the cost of VW, and that is something to consider if you cannot recapture that cost because of limited professional use.

I would also suggest reading as many of the posts in this forum, as well as log on to support forums of the other apps you're considering and get a sense of what things users find most useful or troubling about the apps. That's where the rubber really hits the road. You cannot argue with actual user experience.

My two cents. HIH.

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

Charlie,

In addition to what you have observed, it is important to remember that ArchiCAD has been an architectural modeling product since its inception 20+ years ago. Because of that, it does do buildings very well. But its limits are that it does building very well.

Vectorworks is, at its heart and soul, a modeling program. A very flexible and adaptable modeling program with sets/modules of additional functionality supplied for various industries (ARCHITECT, LANDMARK, SPOTLIGHT, MACHINE DESIGN, and RENDERWORKS).

Development of VW started as MiniCAD in 1984. The industry modules didn't start development until 1998. I'd say for 10 years, we've come a long way in a short period of time to providing functionality in these industries. Granted not perfect, but looking at projecting a curve or line from where we were to where we could be soon is very exciting! Check out Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VectorWorks).

Because of our modeling core, an architectural user (as well as others) may make/draw/model ANYTHING they want and include it in their designs/drawing and models. No restrictions, no absolute reliance on pre-built objects or workflows. AND the user can add whatever data they want to that object and report it, within Vectorworks and not have to use an external application. AND today, a user of VW2009 Architect can attach IFC data to any custom made object and have it export to be viewed and used by an IFC-capable application.

[Linicks]

All,

Thank you very much for your input! Making a commitment to a particular piece of technology is difficult because of all the inherent implications of the decision. Not only do you have to factor in your financial costs, but your time in training, and ultimately the results that you can achieve for all the time, money, and effort that was invested.

The more I learn to use Vectorworks the more I like it, and it's still at the top of my list next to ChiefArchitect X-2. One particular attribute of Vectorworks that I like, is the feeling that I can design anything with it. I have herd fantastic things about ArchiCad and Revit, but there high cost of ownership (financial/learning curve/"nickle and dime additions"/ ...) is a little higher than I can justify at the moment. They do have some attractive short term licensing options that are much cheaper than Vectorworks and CheifArchitect, but the sporadic nature of my projects makes that model less attractive at the moment (Still haven't ruled them out completely).

One major concern that I still have with Vectorworks/Nemetschek is the sales/customer support to this point(Excluding all the helpful and knowledgeable people on this forum.) I'm still not satisfied with my sales experience to this point. For example, I recently called the sales person that I've been working with, and provided some constructive criticism regarding the poor service that I've received thus far. The only response that I received was "Sorry", which was a great start, but the representative didn't even attempt to resolve any of my issues. I don't even have the persons full name, or E-Mail address after three phone calls, initiated by me, and filling out various online forms on the company website. Furthermore, this person seemed to stumble on simple questions. In contrast, the other vendors have provided exceptional experiences, especially ChiefArchitect. Not only have they meet my requests for information, etc, but haven an exuberance the shows that they actually care about what they are doing, rather than collecting a paycheck. I hope that this is just an isolated case, but I'm sure others have had the same experience, and didn't speak up about it. I'm not sure were to go from here to get better service, but I would appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks!

--Nick Pavlica

[Jeffrey W Ouellette]

Nick,

I'll see who I can poke in Sales/Marketing.

[Rossford]

My VW service has been great. In fact, they just called the other day to see how it was going with my VW 2009 upgrade (which they sent me after discovering I bought a new copy of 2008 about a week before the new version came out)

If there was any reluctance, could it be the rep spent a lot of time with you and you were still kicking the tires to make a very careful decision? While not condusive to a sale, perhaps they weren't convinced you were a serious prospect. Just a guess.

I think no matter what you go with, there may be some regrets. But, my office has been with VW since Mini Cad. We sometimes get some grief about not being in AutoCad, but when I see the price tag and the learning curve, I think overall I made the right decision. Sounds like you are in the same boat and VW is a good choice.

Back then, for us it was the fact that it did worksheets right in the program, whereas ACad required a lot of script and plug ins, even after paying the extra for the name brand program. Although I do see some nice funcitionality on the 3D Civil Package, getting all I have in VW would cost 5-8X and I know I wouldn't use most of it that often anyway.

[mr. iagea]

Thanks, Jeff.

I do appreciate that VW is a modeling program, and if I sounded ArchiCAD-centric, it's only because my approach to VW so far has come from my discipline, which is architecture. So, naturally my comments are going to come from that standpoint. I completely understand that VW has many capabilities, and that is exactly why I feel it is even more important that it be intuitive to use. I will reserve my more detailed thoughts on this for off-forum communication.

Despite what I may have alluded in my post, I will stress here that I am impressed with what VW can do for the price. All these capabilities certainly cost much more in comparable apps (such as ArchiCAD, for example, which weighs in at over twice the price of VW). It's definitely a good app and 2009 has me excited about the possibilities. I do feel that is an important distinction that needs to be reiterated when comparing it to others (such as ArchiCAD, an architecture-centric app that is much older).

I also want to make a stand for VW's support. I have had nothing but excellent service from the staff at NNA. I purchased my 2009 upgrade from the same fellow who gave me excellent help when I was first approaching the software back in February of 2008. He contacted me about the new version, and has always been patient and helpful. When I was uncertain about it, he included all the training DVD's in the deal (a reasonable incentive!), and those were immensely helpful in getting me up to speed on the software. I can also say that about the Tech Support (I called repeatedly about the Sketch Preview bug in 2008, which is fixed in 2009). Of course, this forum's irreplaceable value speaks for itself.

Nick, I am happy to provide the name of the sales rep I was working with. I'm sure he would be pleased to know that his service was appreciated enough to be tapped as a reference.

[Linicks]

All,

It's nice to here that others here have had better sales and support experiences than I've had. My situation sounds like it's unique/rare, which is a very good thing for Nemetchek, and it's customers. Working with a different sales representative sounds like the best solution to the issues that I've been having. As such, I've decided that I will not purchase Vectorworks from that sales representative, and would appreciate the name(s), and extension(s) of your recommended sales representative as long as their extension isn't 639.

To clarify my position, I have always indicated that I'm a serious customer from my very first contact with the company. I wouldn't have contacted the company three times, filled out their web forms, and waited for the twelve hour download of the demo to complete if I wasn't. That's not to mention the ten+ hours I've spent with the software trying to determine if it's the right tool for me. Additionally, even if my purchasing position wasn't clear to the sales person, I should be treated as though I was a potential customer. To further illustrate my point, I still haven't received an email with the representatives contact information, no indication that an information kit has been sent(one that the rep. said would overnight to me.), nothing. That fact in itself should speak volumes.

Thanks!

--Nick Palvica

[Rossford]

Nick,

I agree your treatment wasn't right. I am sure that many, many people (most in fact) are very careful about software purchases, since it does sort of set your course for a decade or more and is really expensive for most of us.

My father worked for a company that was in the habit of replacing its lowest producing sales people every year, even if they hit their quota! Perhaps you just happened to get either their worst customer service rep or one that was having some personal issues or getting ready to leave the company and just didn't care. No company is immune from those situations from time to time.

It happens everywhere but the software remains what it is and still could be a good choice for you, so its good you are keeping an open mind about things.

[Rossford]

Sort of OT, but the local paper had a headline article in the housing section about a homebuilder using ArchiCad to help his clients design and visualize their homes in 3D. Great advertising for that software, and I thought it was an odd choice to see in the real estate guide. It also didn't sound like it could do a lot more than VW, but I don't use VW Architect, so I don't really know.

[CipesDesign]

Archicad and VW's are very different products. I have used VW's for over 20 years, so I'm really familiar with it and really good at what I use it for. I tried a demo of Archicad about a year ago and was not overly impressed. Although the paradigm seemed a bit more 'holistic' in terms of the 3d building model, I was very irritated at it's (apparent) lack of 2d graphic customization (all the 2d stuff looked very dry and generic to me). I have a feeling that experience users can get what they want out of it, but in 2d graphics capabilities VW's way outshines most other CAD software, IMO. Hope that helps.

[Guest mhewick]

Nick-

Thanks for your post! I'm sorry to hear that you have not had a positive experience working with our Sales Team. Please rest assured that we strive to do our best to maintain a high level of customer support and service. Please contact me directly and I will personally see to it that your request is fulfilled.

Mark Hewick

Director of Sales

Nemetschek North America Inc.

7150 Riverwood Dr.

Columbia, MD 21046 USA

T 888-646-4223

T 410-290-5114 x681

F 410-290-7266

E mark@vectorworks.net

www.vectorworks.net

[Linicks]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for addressing this issue. I will contact you as soon as I can. However, my schedule at the moment is pretty full so I can't commit to a specific time. I look forward visiting with you, and an opportunity for better sales support.

Thanks!

--Nick Pavlica

[Linicks]

All,

I just wanted to give a quick update on my evaluation(More to come). After a rough start with the Vectorworks sales team, we have worked through many of the customer service issues that I was having. For a variety of reasons I decided to purchase VW2009 Designer + RW. While the other tools that I mentioned earlier are currently better than VW in various areas, VW Designer is the most versatile and comprehensive of the tools in my evaluation. Thanks for your feedback, advice, and help!

--Nick Pavlica

[Bob Holtzmann]

While the other tools that I mentioned earlier are currently better than VW in various areas, VW Designer is the most versatile and comprehensive of the tools in my evaluation.

--Nick Pavlica

Vw Designer definitely surpasses Vw Architect in some areas, particularly in landscaping. There were times I wish I had the Hardscape tool.

And that new MacBook Pro works like a dream, doesn't it?

Edited April 2, 2009 by Bob-H

[Linicks]

Vw Designer definitely surpasses Vw Architect in some areas, particularly in landscaping. There were times I wish I had the Hardscape tool.

All the functionality that comes with Designer is one of the main reasons why I went with Vectorworks. I do a variety of projects, and will enjoy having all the tools to help me get my work done. I designed a custom table to test the traditional CAD/Modeling functionality during my evaluation and was impressed that I could do BIM and CAD all in the same tool.

And that new MacBook Pro works like a dream, doesn't it?

I'm loving the new 17" MacBook Pro! I was wondering if anyone would pickup on the "LED" part of my signature

--Nick Pavlica