Hardscape Curved Edge Facets

[Benson Shaw]

Hardscapes, and some other vwx objects, display faceted edges from smooth 2d source curves, eg bezier and spline.  In the case of Hardscapes, Top Plan view does not show facets.  But 3d views show a facet at each curve vertex.  A workaround is to convert the source polyline (with curves) to a polygon.  No curves, but probably lots of vertices which can slow down redraws and renders.  Vertex count in this revised source can be reduced via Modify>Drafting Aids>Simplify Polys.  Workaround is only a few steps, and helps the display at close zoom. But new edge is difficult to edit. Often easier to draw a new source polyline with bezier or spline points with subsequent and conversion and simplify. Big effort if lots of changes to several edges over design life. So save the original source poly! It might come in handy.

 

Anyone have a better process?

 

Example starts with 8 vertices.  Convert to polygon produces 1027 vertices. Simplify Poly takes it down to 31.  Facets nearly invisible at 31. But edits probalby best as do over.

 

-B

 

PS - this is not a 2d/3d conversion pref issue or render quality setting (both Very High), or layer raster resolution (300).

 

Hardscape facets.vwx

[Tom W.]

Have you played with the 'Simplification Tolerance' setting in the OIP? This was introduced in VW2023 I think.

[Poot]

I have also been a puzzled as to why this happens when you transform a polyline into a polygon/hardscape.  This also happens with 3d contours, making the proliferation of vertices an issue.

[Benson Shaw]

12 hours ago, Tom W. said:

'Simplification Tolerance' setting in the OIP

Ahhh! That's it!!  @Tom W. -  brilliant, as usual.

 

For this Hardscape, the value defaulted to .083.

Tried value of 1, which essentially eliminated all the curves and subbed in a single point.

And decreasing values.  .001 did the trick.

 

The Edit Path window shows the orig source with the beziers intact.

 

 

-B

 

[Tom W.]

Cool!

 

48 minutes ago, Benson Shaw said:

the value defaulted to .083

 

For me it is 25.4 (mm) = 1"

I guess your units must be feet? (1/12=0.083)

Not the most user friendly value in that context...

[Poot]

12 hours ago, Benson Shaw said:

For this Hardscape, the value defaulted to .083.

Tried value of 1, which essentially eliminated all the curves and subbed in a single point.

And decreasing values.  .001 did the trick.

 

The Edit Path window shows the orig source with the beziers intact.

 

 

If you change to .001, doesn't that give you a huge number of vertices? 

[aage.langedrag]

Finished setting in VW2024 is probably 0.025. Setting is absolutely essential for the large model in VW to work and not collapse. After much use of this method in my models, I have used this general rule.
0.02 or now 0.025 - Early stage and standard. Then I work in more detail on how you want the object structure to be in the IFC for construction.

 

NB. You have to work your way back and forth with some objects that have complicated geometry in order for the object to display correctly in 3D. Some solid objects in VW sometimes lose 3D geometry and then it helps to change the Simplification tolerance. Thin edges with rough settings mean that the outer and inner side of a curved edge suddenly have overlapping and intersecting geometry, which then becomes incorrect. Therefore, you sometimes have to go down 0.002 on certain objects while the rest can be 0.02. You also need to use setting to let geometry which is important to get right in IFC for build to model, edging of steel, get 0.002 while plant field which only specifies a 3D volume with plants has got 0.02.
Very frustrating is that every time you have made changes to a landscape area, the setting is reset to 0. Completely unnecessary, unfortunately, so you have to make the changes again. I have built-in control views that color all objects after setting the simplification tolerance. All objects that have this =0 are red. This helps me quickly spot problems before I export IFC. Large models cannot change many objects at once. You must then select one volume at a time to change. If you have sent the landscape area to a site model that is on different design layers, a new problem. Then you must remember to have the Site model visible before you start making changes to the landscape area, otherwise the object will lose its height and lie down at sea level.

 

 

[Poot]

Very nice workflow @aage.langedrag!

I am still wondering why there is a conversion with the geometry from the simple original shapes that can have very few vertices, to the polygons with many vertices used with Hardscape/Landscape areas/3D geometry.

Doesn't this make revisions to the geometry of these areas very time consuming?

 

[aage.langedrag]

All geometry that Landscape architects works with that is to be built should use curves with whole numbers of radius. No curves shall be divided into lines. The problem arises especially in our company when geometry is imported from other software such as dwg. All curves are then divided into countless lines, which is useless and makes the model very difficult to work with. When this happens, I ask those responsible to re-model the geometry in Vectorworks so that all curves and arcs have geometry that can be adjusted and changed. All arcs then only consist of three points, start, middle and end. This is where it is important to further control geometry with Simplification

Tolerance.

 

The first image shows geometry that is correct, while image 2 shows precisely the problem that the geometry has come from AutoCAD 2D. Sloppiness and inaccuracies that have worked for drawing production in 2D do not work when we work in 3D and BIM. Geometry must therefore be modeled again or changed so that all curves get the correct shape. Why should we allow mistakes to continue in the first place? 3D and BIM are also helpful in making us more precise and accurate.

 

[Jeff Prince]

1 hour ago, aage.langedrag said:

All geometry that Landscape architects works with that is to be built should use curves with whole numbers of radius. No curves shall be divided into lines. The problem arises especially in our company when geometry is imported from other software such as dwg. All curves are then divided into countless lines, which is useless and makes the model very difficult to work with. When this happens, I ask those responsible to re-model the geometry in Vectorworks so that all curves and arcs have geometry that can be adjusted and changed. All arcs then only consist of three points, start, middle and end. This is where it is important to further control geometry with Simplification

Tolerance.

 

The first image shows geometry that is correct, while image 2 shows precisely the problem that the geometry has come from AutoCAD 2D. Sloppiness and inaccuracies that have worked for drawing production in 2D do not work when we work in 3D and BIM. Geometry must therefore be modeled again or changed so that all curves get the correct shape. Why should we allow mistakes to continue in the first place? 3D and BIM are also helpful in making us more precise and accurate.

I have to disagree with a lot of this.  Not all curved landscapes must be made from arcs with radii, it’s perfectly acceptable to use curves like beziers and such if your contractor knows how to build them. Is the “problem” you are experiencing with importing AutoCAD splines and arcs into Vectorworks due to bad import settings or perhaps poorly drawn AutoCAD?  I don’t have these problems with well made AutoCAD files, but I used AutoCAD for 20 years, so I know how it works.

 

What makes “bad” geo inside AutoCAD?  Drawing without tangency…not using snaps…Offsetting splines to create parallel edges… as it turns out, a lot of the same bad practices people have in Vectorworks.  Understanding geometric construction, especially with complex curves, is a dying skill.  It’s easy for people to blame their softwares, it takes experience and craftsmanship to make things… even in the digital world.

[Benson Shaw]

10 hours ago, Poot said:

I am still wondering why there is a conversion with the geometry from the simple original shapes

In my tests - Adjustments to the 3d simplification tolerance,  eg in Hardscape OIP, do not affect the source object geometry. Those original Arcs, Bezier and spline curves in the source polyline are present for edit via right click Edit Path pane. TopPlan always displays the curves as the source obj . 
 

Perhaps others can comment on performance and print/save issues of complex files with super low tolerance settings for such DTMs and site mods? I don't have any big, complex files to compare. 

 

-B

Edited April 26 by Benson Shaw

[Benson Shaw]

Also -

 

If hardscape 3d display curvature is is changed via the simplification tolerance, a double click of the Hardscape launches the Reshape tool and reveals vertices of the Path (no need to right click>edit path) for edit - not converted to some polygon with many facets.  Edits can be made in 3d views as if editing that simple 2d polyline. 

 

Changing the Simplification Tolerance in the OIP does not affect the vertex count near bottom of the OIP.  eg in my example above, the vertex count is 8 in each iteration of the simplification value.

 

-B