Best File format for Point Cloud information

[Rishie]

Hello Everyone

 

I’m attempting to import a point cloud file that I received in .ep57 format (around 5.5GB). I know that Vectorworks supports the .e57 file format. However, even when I import the file and set the data import to 100%, I don’t see much useful information in Vectorworks.  On the contrary, when I open the same .ep57 file in Cloudcompare or Autodesk Recap, I can access more valuable information about the scanned model.

 

Can anyone assist me with this? Do I need to request the point cloud file in a different format? Please let me know if I’ve to send more information to diagnose.

 

Best Regards,

Rishienathan R J

[shorter]

How many points are there in the point cloud?

[Tom W.]

7 hours ago, Rishie said:

I don’t see much useful information in Vectorworks

 

Can you post a screenshot of what you see?

[Rishie]

Hi @shorter

The number of points on the source file was 361,562,352.

However, when I set the import percentage to 100%, the number of imported points was only 100,000,000. This discrepancy might be causing me to lose information.

Could you please assist me in configuring Vectorworks to import all 361,562,352 points? Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Hi @Tom W.

I've recorded a short video showcasing the model in Vectorworks and CloudCompare. Just to let you know, when I open the model in Autodesk Recap, I can find more useful information. There, I can delve into the model, exploring floor plans and interior elevations with much more detail.

Thank you for your assistance.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

The fact that the Point Cloud is displaying with those vertical bands with gaps in between suggests it was imported into a Georeferenced file. Is this the case? I have posted about this in the past: any time you try + import a point cloud into a georeferenced file half the points will be missing. Very annoying. If your file is georeferenced try running 'Set User Origin to Internal Origin' + reimporting the point cloud with 'Center Import on Internal Origin' enabled + see if the results are any different. You can re-georeference the file again afterwards + manually move the point cloud to the correct geographical location assuming you have a means of locating it.

[Rishie]

Hey @Tom W.

I set the user origin to Internal Origin, and this approach yielded better results. Thank you very much. This approach has been very helpful.

However, it's worth noting that the .e57 file contains 361,562,352 (three hundred sixty-one million plus) points, and Vectorworks can only import a maximum of 100,000,000 (one hundred million) points at a time. Consequently, I was only able to import less than one-third of the points.

I've requested the scanning company to break the point cloud file into three or more files, with each file containing a maximum of 100,000,000 (one hundred million) points. I believe this would enable me to import them fully into Vectorworks.

I just want to check if there is a way to import more than 100,000,000 (one hundred million) points.

Thank you very much for your assistance

[Tom W.]

5 minutes ago, Rishie said:

Hey @Tom W.

I set the user origin to Internal Origin, and this approach yielded better results. Thank you very much. This approach has been very helpful.

However, it's worth noting that the .e57 file contains 361,562,352 (three hundred sixty-one million plus) points, and Vectorworks can only import a maximum of 100,000,000 (one hundred million) points at a time. Consequently, I was only able to import less than one-third of the points.

I've requested the scanning company to break the point cloud file into three or more files, with each file containing a maximum of 100,000,000 (one hundred million) points. I believe this would enable me to import them fully into Vectorworks.

I just want to check if there is a way to import more than 100,000,000 (one hundred million) points.

Thank you very much for your assistance

 

100 million is the maximum (according to Help)

[rDesign]

You could also try using CloudCompare to subsample your original point cloud to have a max of 100 million points.

 

[shorter]

On 2/5/2024 at 12:36 PM, Rishie said:

Hey @Tom W.

I set the user origin to Internal Origin, and this approach yielded better results. Thank you very much. This approach has been very helpful.

However, it's worth noting that the .e57 file contains 361,562,352 (three hundred sixty-one million plus) points, and Vectorworks can only import a maximum of 100,000,000 (one hundred million) points at a time. Consequently, I was only able to import less than one-third of the points.

I've requested the scanning company to break the point cloud file into three or more files, with each file containing a maximum of 100,000,000 (one hundred million) points. I believe this would enable me to import them fully into Vectorworks.

I just want to check if there is a way to import more than 100,000,000 (one hundred million) points.

Thank you very much for your assistance

 yes there is a limit and this should be specified in your 'point cloud survey specifications' along with point cloud density and file format.

[Rishie]

 

Hello @Tom W. , @rDesign and @shorter,

 

I'm facing another problem and need some assistance with it. I've asked my client to divide the point cloud file into six separate files, with each file representing a different floor, ensuring that each file contains fewer than one hundred million points.

 

I've been setting the User Origin to Internal Origin and importing the point cloud with 'Center Import on Internal Origin' enabled. However, I'm now facing misalignment issues with all the floors.

 

When I import all six files separately without setting the User Origin to Internal Origin and import the point cloud with 'Center Import on Internal Origin' enabled, all six floors align properly. However, I'm unable to work on it as it generates vertical lines, as mentioned in the previous thread.

 

Could you please assist me in resolving this issue?

 

Thank you,

Rishie

[Tom W.]

8 minutes ago, Rishie said:

 

Hello @Tom W. , @rDesign and @shorter,

 

I'm facing another problem and need some assistance with it. I've asked my client to divide the point cloud file into six separate files, with each file representing a different floor, ensuring that each file contains fewer than one hundred million points.

 

I've been setting the User Origin to Internal Origin and importing the point cloud with 'Center Import on Internal Origin' enabled. However, I'm now facing misalignment issues with all the floors.

 

When I import all six files separately without setting the User Origin to Internal Origin and import the point cloud with 'Center Import on Internal Origin' enabled, all six floors align properly. However, I'm unable to work on it as it generates vertical lines, as mentioned in the previous thread.

 

Could you please assist me in resolving this issue?

 

Thank you,

Rishie

 

This is an issue I have raised before. It's a big problem. I have gotten around it by asking the surveyor to include a special 'datum' point with known coordinates in each of the point cloud files which allows me to move + align them correctly I.e. place a 3D loci in the file + give it the known coordinates then use Move by Points to align each point cloud to that loci.

 

This is what I meant by 'assuming you have a means of locating it' above...

 

Please hassle VW about remedying this situation! Not sure if I made a wishlist item about it or filed a bug...

[Rishie]

you are very helpful @Tom W.

I'll check with the surveyor if they can include a special 'datum' point with known coordinates in each of the point cloud files. Also, I'll report this as a bug to Vectorworks.

[Rishie]

Hi @Tom W.,

The surveyor has informed me that the point cloud is currently using the Swiss coordinate system, with coordinates ranging from 2'600'000 to 1'200'000 on the grid.

He mentioned that if he could change it to a coordinate system very close to 0/0/0, it might be beneficial.

As I'm new to point cloud projects, I'm unsure about the specifics. Is this something you can assist me with?

Additionally, he mentioned uncertainty about adding a 3D loci in the point cloud system.

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, Rishie said:

The surveyor has informed me that the point cloud is currently using the Swiss coordinate system,

 

So presumably this means the building in question is in Switzerland...? I think the surveyor needs to use the coordinate system that's appropriate for where the survey is taking place + you need to Georeference your file to correspond with that coordinate system.

 

1 hour ago, Rishie said:

He mentioned that if he could change it to a coordinate system very close to 0/0/0, it might be beneficial.

 

This might work if you're not concerned about Georeferencing. But in my experience, the only way to get the Point Cloud to import properly was to do it using 'Center Import on Internal Origin', and this means that multiple Point Clouds are by definition going to come into the file centred on each other rather than with the correct alignment so I'm not convinced it would work (given the whole point is that we want the different Point Clouds to maintain their alignment with each other on importation).

 

1 hour ago, Rishie said:

Additionally, he mentioned uncertainty about adding a 3D loci in the point cloud system.

 

This wasn't what I was suggesting: in my case my surveyor included a special extra point in the Point Cloud + told me what its coordinates where. And included a point in all of the Point Clouds, all of them at the same coordinates. These points were located say 50m off to the side of the main Point Cloud so they were easy to locate/identify. Then in my VWX file which I was importing the Point Clouds into I placed a 3D Locus on its own Design Layer + gave it the coordinates supplied by the surveyor. Then when I imported the Point Clouds I was able to use Move by Points to move them into position by clicking first on the special point + second on the 3D locus. 

[shorter]

Is for a building or buildings or a large area of landscaping...?

 

[Rishie]

it's a 6-story hotel building. 

We've decided to include stairs in all point cloud files for the building (a 6-story hotel). This will allow us to align all the storeys with the stairs. We hope this approach works well for us.

Thanks,

Rishie

[shorter]

Then you need to establish the coordinate system in your file BEFORE importing the point cloud, or for that matter, any file like DWG or IFC, if the files received are located in true world coordinates, and by this I mean the X,Y coordinate system of the country, region or city in which the site is located.

 

We have a strict method for the process of setting up a project which DOES NOT align with the 'recommended' import settings within Vectorworks where you 'centre on import' thereby losing control of where the user origin, and therefore the coordinate system, is located.

 

And fortunately it is very simple and does not result in a thesis or diatribe on origins.

 

All you need to do is...

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, shorter said:

Then you need to establish the coordinate system in your file BEFORE importing the point cloud, or for that matter, any file like DWG or IFC, if the files received are located in true world coordinates, and by this I mean the X,Y coordinate system of the country, region or city in which the site is located.

 

The problem is, as discussed above, when you try + import a Point Cloud into a file set up to use a coordinate system the data doesn't import properly (half the points are missing). In order to import the full compliment of points you have to do it into a file where the User Origin + Internal Origin are coincident at 0,0 + use the 'Center Import on Internal Origin' option. This at least has been my experience + @Rishie + others seem to confirm the same. This is only Point Clouds - DWGs are fine.

[shorter]

This is not my experience with point clouds.  They have previously responded well to import into a file in which a controlled user origin has been explictly set.

 

This after all is what 'centre on import' is doing, except with no control!

[shorter]

Just now, shorter said:

This is not my experience with point clouds.  They have previously responded well to import into a file in which a controlled user origin has been explictly set.

 

This after all is what 'centre on import' is doing, except with no control!

 

ps. I have different issues with point clouds but they are not related to the above.

[Tom W.]

7 minutes ago, shorter said:

This is not my experience with point clouds.  They have previously responded well to import into a file in which a controlled user origin has been explictly set.

 

This after all is what 'centre on import' is doing, except with no control!

 

My experience is that in a Georeferenced file (i.e. where the User Origin was set to match the British National Grid origin) Point Clouds would import with the correct location/orientation but with half the points missing (in stripy bands). If I then tried importing again but with 'Center Import on Internal Origin' enabled it was the same thing. The only way I could get the Point Cloud to come in with all the points present was if the User Origin + Internal Origin were coincident (+ with 'Center Import on Internal Origin' enabled). This was the same with all the point clouds I have imported (not hundreds admittedly). Others have said the same thing. But if your experience has been different that's great! Although not sure what I should be doing at this end to achieve the same results.

[shorter]

Ok.  Needs testing!

 

In which versions have you had these issues?

Edited February 14 by shorter

[Tom W.]

19 minutes ago, shorter said:

Ok.  Needs testing!

 

In which versions have you had these issues?

 

VW2021 + VW2022. Probably VW2023. Not tried VW2024 yet.

[shorter]

I will back-track on the point clouds we have been sent and recheck.  We received a load of point clouds of trees on one project for a TPO and planning application and am pretty sure they arrived in the right place, aligned to the UO, but that was VW2019, and when I tested again in 2024, the model aligned itself correctly.

[Tom W.]

On 2/14/2024 at 12:37 PM, shorter said:

I will back-track on the point clouds we have been sent and recheck.  We received a load of point clouds of trees on one project for a TPO and planning application and am pretty sure they arrived in the right place, aligned to the UO, but that was VW2019, and when I tested again in 2024, the model aligned itself correctly.

 

I have just imported four point clouds + I'm seeing the same thing I described earlier: if I try to bring them into a Georeferenced file they look like this:

 

With half the points missing. These are my own point clouds scanned with the iPad so not georeferenced but regardless of whether 'centre on internal origin is enabled' or not they come into the file in the same place, centred in fact on the User Origin.

 

So I have to first import them into a blank non-georeferenced file, where they come in properly (with all points present)...

 

...then import them from there into the (georeferenced) project file.

 

In this case I am having to manually position the point clouds anyway because I scanned them myself so not the end of the world, but even so it's more steps than it should be. And if the point clouds were georeferenced it would be an even huger PITA of course because I'd not be getting the benefit of the georeferencing.