Internal origin vs user origin

[Zsombor]

Hello, I'm confused about internal and user origins, could you please help me with this?

First I thought that internal origin can't be moved, it's always at the zero point of the projection system. But we also have a user origin which one can be move to anywhere, so vectorworks can calculate with low coordinates.

Now I know tha internal origin can also be moved with geolocate tool.

 

My questions:

1. If I can move the internal origin next to the site, what is the meaning of the user origin?

2. After moving the internal origin close to the site, I could still import a georeferenced DWG file to the right place after checking the georeferenced file option in import setup window. Excellent! But why it doesn't work the same way when I want to export a DWG file? I check the georeferenced option, the layers are also georeferenced, but in the exported file I have the coordinates regarding to the close internal origin, instead of the projection systems zero point.

[Tom W.]

You can't in fact move the Internal Origin. It might seem like you are moving it but what you are actually doing is moving the file geometry relative to it. The User Origin is the origin that the rulers, all dialog boxes + the OIP refer to so the idea is to set the User Origin to wherever you need it (e.g. the 0,0 point for your coordinate system) then place your geometry relative to that 0,0 point. As you need the Internal Origin to be within 5km of your geometry to avoid floating point calculation issues, 'moving' the Internal Origin actually means moving the drawing geometry + the User Origin together to a position where the geometry is centred on the Internal Origin.

 

The Geolocate Tool doesn't move the Internal Origin, it moves the world (your geometry + coordinate system) relative to it.

[JuanP]

@Zsombor In Vectorworks, the internal origin refers to the fixed coordinates (0,0) at the center of a new drawing. It cannot be moved. On the other hand, the user origin is a location that the user can set. The drawing coordinates are displayed relative to the user origin. By shifting the user origin, you can make it easier to work with coordinates, measurements, and distance values. The internal origin, user origin, and page center coincide at (0,0) in a new drawing. However, they can be moved independently depending on the design needs or to maintain the coordinates of imported files.

 

Additional information can be found HERE

[Pat Stanford]

The following is from something else I am working on.  Is the following accurate (it seems so to me) and is it clear enough to be helpful?

 

Quote

The user origin and the internal origin serve different purposes. The internal origin is the fixed reference point of the drawing, always located at (0,0) in the projection system. It cannot be moved directly, but it can be adjusted using the geolocate tool to align with a specific geographical location.

 

On the other hand, the user origin is a movable reference point that allows you to define a different coordinate system within the drawing. By shifting the user origin, you can work with smaller coordinate values, making it easier to handle measurements and distances. This is particularly useful when dealing with large-scale projects or when using reference point systems like the Swiss architectural measurements example mentioned in the knowledge base.

 

So, in summary, the user origin provides a way to work with coordinates relative to a specific point within the drawing, while the internal origin represents the fixed reference point of the projection system.

 

When exporting a DWG file, the georeferencing information is not automatically included in the exported file. The georeferenced option in the export setup window primarily affects the coordinate system information of the exported file, not the actual location of the objects within the drawing.

 

To export a DWG file with the correct georeferenced coordinates, you would need to manually adjust the user origin to match the desired georeferencing coordinate system before exporting. This ensures that the exported file will have the coordinates relative to the projection system's zero point, rather than the shifted internal origin.

 

[Zsombor]

@Tom W. @JuanP, @Pat Stanford, Thank you for your answers, now I can understand it better! To summarise it, I just want to know which workflow is better in your opinion:

 

Workflow1: 

First locate the site I have to work with, and also adjust the internal origin with the geolocate tool. I put the user origin to the same spot, but when I have to export a georeferenced DWG, I put it permanently to the 0,0 point of the projection system.

 

Workflow2:

I don't use the geolocate tool, I move only the user origin close to the site.

 

 

[Tom W.]

2 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

The internal origin is the fixed reference point of the drawing, always located at (0,0) in the projection system.

 

Whilst the Internal Origin is no doubt the zero point as far as VW the program is concerned it might be confusing to say it's always located at 0,0 because as far as the user is concerned, the 0,0 point is defined by the User Origin + the Internal Origin has coordinates relative to that zero point. For example, in my template files the Internal Origin has this location:

[Tom W.]

12 hours ago, Zsombor said:

@Tom W. @JuanP, @Pat Stanford, Thank you for your answers, now I can understand it better! To summarise it, I just want to know which workflow is better in your opinion:

 

Workflow1: 

First locate the site I have to work with, and also adjust the internal origin with the geolocate tool. I put the user origin to the same spot, but when I have to export a georeferenced DWG, I put it permanently to the 0,0 point of the projection system.

 

Workflow2:

I don't use the geolocate tool, I move only the user origin close to the site.

 

 

 

I would first georeference a blank file: set the User Origin to the zero point for the relevant projected coordinate system then use the Geolocate Tool to 'move' the Internal Origin to the centre (more or less) of the geographical area you will be working in. Now you can import a Georeferenced DWG + the geometry will come into the file in the correct geographical location + it will all be within the safe working zone (the 5km circle around the Internal Origin). Likewise when you export the geometry it will have the correct coordinates relative to the projected coordinate system you + the person at the other end are using. The User Origin stays at the zero point for the PCS at all times. As long as you set up the file so that the Internal Origin is central to your working area initially that doesn't need to change either. But this means that throughout, the numbers on your rulers, the X/Y coordinates in the OIP, etc are all relative to the User Origin which is likely to be a long way away: this is how I work but perhaps you are saying you want to be able to model with the User Origin set to a known datum on your site so all measurements are relative to that? And only move it when you import + export...?

 

Note: in my workflow the precise location of the Internal Origin is not particularly important, only that my geometry is no more that 5km away from it. However I know that in proper BIM coordination the Internal Origin would be set to a common Project Datum as a kind of belts + braces measure to ensure everyone's singing from the same hymn sheet. 

[Zsombor]

@Tom W. I see, I really appreriate your help with this detailed description!