Site Model 3D mesh no fill + spikes

[JHEarcht3]

VectorWorks 2013  on Windows 11 on PC

 

Learning to produce a site model (Settings image) from 2D survey contours (2D image). Survey had no elevation data, so I added elevations manually. Lots of repetitive redos before I got to this point.

 

In 3D view the model was showing spikes along some contours (3D image). I selected each contour and using the 3D Reshape tool found some vertices that seemed to be too close or almost on top of each other. I moved them apart. That seemed to help, but I'm still getting unsightly spikes along some contours. What am I missing?

 

I want the site surface to look solid, as in the Settings sample.  So with all contours selected, in Obj Info Render, I selected "grass". Rendered perspective looks OK except for the spikes (Site Render image). The vertical brown face is below the waterline and minimum elevation. 3D Plan looks like (Image Plan Rendered). How can I make the brown areas look like water?

 

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

[Pat Stanford]

It looks like you have some vertices that have a much lower Z value than the rest.  Check those points and make sure they have the same Z value as the rest of the points on the contour line.  Or just delete them. It looks like you have enough data that removing a few points won't make a huge change in your results.

[JHEarcht3]

22 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

It looks like you have some vertices that have a much lower Z value than the rest.  Check those points and make sure they have the same Z value as the rest of the points on the contour line.  Or just delete them. It looks like you have enough data that removing a few points won't make a huge change in your results.

Pat, Thanks for the reply.

 

My site is a small segment of a thousand acre lake survey. I had no contact with the surveyor. As I received it, the AutoCAD survey contours had no embedded elevation data, only contour text labels. So, in VW,  I selected each contour and set the elevation manually in the Object Info box. Shouldn't that make all vertices on that contour at the same elevation? Is there any way I could select a single vertex to change its elevation? Validate 3D Data says "no problems found".

 

I have found that some contours have vertices jammed on top of each other (about 10 - 20%). In 3D Reshape I see that they typically occur in groups of five or six vertex boxes. So, assuming that has something to do with the spikes, I have been laboriously deleting one of the 5 grouped vertices. That leaves behind a set of three.  And if the three still seem too close together, I move one point farther away. At normal viewing scale, or at zoom, these deletions have no visible effect on the contour line.

 

The Smoothing Interval is 2' on a 1" = 20' scale. Should I increase it? The contours look pretty jagged as is. See zoomed Image Multiple Vertices in Straight Lines. The triples indicate the clusters I'm talking about. Those tiny line segments seem to be superfluous in the middle of a long straight line. Where the blue boxes have black outlines, two more boxes are underneath. See zoomed Image Multiple Vertices for a typical group of five.

 

It seems that whoever originally drew the contours was stuttering as he drew each curve. Or could the Vectorworks Create Site Model Tool be responsible for these glitches? Some of these clusters occur in the middle of a straight line, where there's no need for a vertex. 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by JHEarcht3

[Benson Shaw]

Duplicate the DTM, or, the whole file, and work on the dupe

 

The OIP for the site model has a button to view and edit the source data. I forget name in v2013.   Enter this edit screen, select all, put drawing in Front, or other side view.  Choose Fit to Objects option. If the DTM was made from contours, this should reveal a stack of parallel, straight “lines” (side view of all the 3d poly contours), probably with even spacing. If the stack is interrupted by diagonals diving to layer plane, these are contours with out of place vertices. dbl click them one at a time and edit the errant points (side view Ok) via delete, or z adjust. Note that OIP for the 3d poly has a Move field with pulldown to choose Entire object or Vertex only. Your previous edits may have snapped some vertices to layer plane or other objects. 
 

Unlikely from your description, but  . . . Another possible source of the spikes could be extra objects mistakenly selected/included when the DTM was created - 3d loci, 3d Poly segments, stakes or other flotsam on the layer plane. To test this, open the DTM source data edit, select all, side view, fit to objects, drag a selection marquee along the layer plane, or under the lowest contour to find any objects down there. If anything captured, Group it, edit group, isolate in top view.  Delete any irrelevant items. Exit, Ungroup, exit the source edit screen. 
 

hth

-B

[Jeff Prince]

10 minutes ago, Benson Shaw said:

Unlikely from your description, but  . . . Another possible source of the spikes could be extra objects mistakenly selected/included when the DTM was created - 3d loci, 3d Poly segments, stakes or other flotsam on the layer plane

I would bet the farm on that being the case.

[JHEarcht3]

11 hours ago, Benson Shaw said:

The OIP for the site model has a button to view and edit the source data. I forget name in v2013.

Benson, thanks for the reply.

 

In VW2013 I selected the site model in both 2D and 3D views. But, in the OIP, I don't see any button or box labeled to "edit source data". Is there any other way to edit source data?

 

The AutoCAD file I imported apparently didn't have an associated database. So all I have to work with is contour lines and elevation label text. I deleted the imported text labels, because they were wonky, and added my own. Which are turned off for the 3D model.

 

11 hours ago, Benson Shaw said:

Unlikely from your description, but  . . . Another possible source of the spikes could be extra objects mistakenly selected/included when the DTM was created - 3d loci, 3d Poly segments, stakes or other flotsam on the layer plane. To test this, open the DTM source data edit, select all, side view, fit to objects, drag a selection marquee along the layer plane, or under the lowest contour to find any objects down there. If anything captured, Group it, edit group, isolate in top view.  Delete any irrelevant items. Exit, Ungroup, exit the source edit screen. 

Again, I can't find any tool to view or edit the source data. But the survey I imported was pretty simple, with only polyline contours and overlaid property lines. I have the PLs turned off. There are no roads or other artificial site improvements. So, the only extraneous objects I find are the bunched-up vertices in the polylines. I can select the whole contour, but not the individual vertices. So I assume all vertices are at the same elevation. When I select the whole site in 2D or 3D, the OIP reports "93 polygons", and no other objects, and no data.

 

PS__I just tried to start from scratch, and use the Import Survey File into a new blank drawing. The command reported " Error : the file has bad data on line 1", and nothing was imported. I didn't use that command for the original import. Not a good way to start over! I may have to request a new cleaned-up survey file.

 

But something seems to project a few of the vertices downward, mostly along the lower edge of the site, where a vertical face would normally be drawn. That face is added by the Create Site Model command. So, I have no control over it. The other (green) spikes seem to have flat surfaces. Could they also be artifacts of the Create SM command?

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by JHEarcht3

[Jeff Prince]

6 minutes ago, JHEarcht3 said:

Benson, thanks for the reply.

 

In VW2013 I selected the site model in both 2D and 3D views. But, in the OIP, I don't see any button or box labeled to "edit source data". Is there any other way to edit source data?

 

The AutoCAD file I imported apparently didn't have an associated database. So all I have to work with is contour lines and elevation label text. I deleted the imported text labels, because they were wonky, and added my own. Which are turned off for the 3D model.

 

Again, I can't find any tool to view or edit the source data. But the survey I imported was pretty simple, with only polyline contours and overlaid property lines. I have the PLs turned off. There are no roads or other artificial site improvements. So, the only extraneous objects I find are the bunched-up vertices in the polylines. I can select the whole contour, but not the individual vertices. So I assume all vertices are at the same elevation. When I select the whole site in 2D or 3D, the OIP reports "93 polygons", and no other objects, and no data.

 

But something seems to project a few of the vertices downward, mostly along the lower edge of the site, where a vertical face would normally be drawn. That face is added by the Create Site Model command. So, I have no control over it. The other (green) spikes seem to have flat surfaces. Could they also be artifacts of the Create SM command?

 

 

It's a lot easier for people to help you if you post your files.  I recommend the VWX file you are showing here plus the original source DWG.

[JHEarcht3]

3 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

It's a lot easier for people to help you if you post your files.  I recommend the VWX file you are showing here plus the original source DWG.

Thanks. I was hoping for a quick fix. But I now think I'll have to start over from scratch, with a clean survey. But I don't have direct access to the surveyor, and the architect is on vacation.

[Jeff Prince]

3 minutes ago, JHEarcht3 said:

Thanks. I was hoping for a quick fix

 

The quickest way for people to see your problem is to look at the file.

[Benson Shaw]

2 hours ago, JHEarcht3 said:

The AutoCAD file I imported

OK, as @jeff prince suggests, post the files.  But the AutoCAD import might offer another clue - Are your contours more than 4 or 5 miles from your vwx internal origin? Acad geometry often imports far far away from the vwx internal origin.  This causes weird geometry distortions in vwx environment, eg spikes, missing surfaces, laggy redraws and other problems.

 

Test by Top/Plan view>Select All>Fit to Objects.   Sometimes all objects are distant and clumped together, sometimes only a few errant ones, sometimes a page border or text block away in one direction and everything else 20 miles away in another direction.  Moving everything close to origin usually solves (Zoom in, Select relevant objects, Group, Cut, Paste at origin, Ungroup). If it's only one or two distant items, delete or move them near origin.  

 

I can't remember whether v2013 has georeferencing, but that's another avenue to deal with distant objects.

 

-B

Edited July 25, 2023 by Benson Shaw

[Jeff Prince]

2 hours ago, Benson Shaw said:

But the AutoCAD import might offer another clue - Are your contours more than 4 or 5 miles from your vwx internal origin? Acad geometry often imports far far away from the vwx internal origin.  This causes weird geometry distortions in vwx environment, eg spikes, missing surfaces, laggy redraws and other problems.

 

 

That doesn't create these spikes.  Its bad data used as a source for the site model that is causing this issue.

 

Apparently, the OP wants us to diagnose their problems with words alone 🙂

 

I don't do that anymore, it's getting old.

It's like people who want help modeling something but can't be bothered to post a sketch of what they hope to create.

[JHEarcht3]

5 hours ago, jeff prince said:

The quickest way for people to see your problem is to look at the file.

OK. I didn't want to take up so much of your time, but I'm going in circles.

 

Here's the original Lot 18 site survey, which is a tiny portion (possibly a viewport) of a larger AutoCAD survey . And my site model, (trial 9) with only 2D and 3D contours showing. Lot 18 is the central portion of the whole area. I wanted to show where this project is on the general site. So I used the Property Line tool (in a different file), but in rendering it only showed the area inside the boundary. Is there a way to just draw lines on the 3D surface?

 

You may notice other problems, such as very angular contours near the road (2' smoothing). Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Lot 18, Heritage 1, 2011.dwg Lot 18 site plan --- 3D trial 9 -- 7-25.vwx

Edited July 25, 2023 by JHEarcht3

[Jeff Prince]

@JHEarcht3 See, that was so much easier 🙂

 

Your problem is one of the contours has some points set at 0 and others at the correct elevation.  This can be fixed by moving the incorrect points to the correct elevation, deleting the offending points, or using a trick (convert to 2D Poly, Ungroup, Compose, Convert to 3D poly, and move to correct Z elevation).  The last method is probably the fastest in this case, the first two are handy when it's only a few points on a poly that need to be adjusted.

 

EDIT - Actually, looking at the DWG you provided, the contours were already correctly located in 3D by the surveyor.  So, you could have just imported the contours as 3D items and been done a lot quicker w/o issue.  It looks like you created this issue by unnecessarily modifying the contours.  That can happen when you are snapping to the wrong plane or using the wrong tools for the job.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by jeff prince

[JHEarcht3]

16 hours ago, jeff prince said:

Your problem is one of the contours has some points set at 0 and others at the correct elevation.  This can be fixed by moving the incorrect points to the correct elevation,

How can I set the elevation of a single vertex on a contour?

[Jeff Prince]

20 minutes ago, JHEarcht3 said:

How can I set the elevation of a single vertex on a contour?

Reshape tool, reposition vertex on z axis from Front view while holding shift key.  There are other ways too…

[Pat Stanford]

If the contour has a reasonable number of vertices and only a few need adjusted, you can select the poly, set the OIP to Move: Vertex Only, and then use the arrows below that to step through the vertices and changes the ones that need changing.

 

This is probably reasonably for up to about 100 vertices. If you have thousands, I would find a different way.

 

[Jeff Prince]

16 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

If the contour has a reasonable number of vertices and only a few need adjusted, you can select the poly, set the OIP to Move: Vertex Only, and then use the arrows below that to step through the vertices and changes the ones that need changing.

 

This is probably reasonably for up to about 100 vertices. If you have thousands, I would find a different way.

 

 

can you do that in VWX 2013 though?  I thought that was an added feature with some past OIP enhancements.

[Pat Stanford]

I think you have been able to move Vertices in the OIP as long as there has been an OIP. 

 

Screen shot from VW12.5 Windows seems to show the capability.

 

[Katarina Ollikainen]

 As a contour has only one single z value: if there are a lot of vertices, go to top plan view, and convert the contour to a polygon (make a note of the correct elevation first). Then convert it back to a 3D poly and give it the correct elevation.

Modify > Convert > Convert to Polygons and then Modify > Convert > Convert to 3D Polys

[Benson Shaw]

@JHEarcht3 if inclined, make a screenshot of the entire OIP of your site model. Just to indulge me.  I’m curious about options offered in v2013. 
 

-B

[JHEarcht3]

23 hours ago, jeff prince said:

EDIT - Actually, looking at the DWG you provided, the contours were already correctly located in 3D by the surveyor.  So, you could have just imported the contours as 3D items and been done a lot quicker w/o issue.  It looks like you created this issue by unnecessarily modifying the contours.  That can happen when you are snapping to the wrong plane or using the wrong tools for the job.

Images below show Original Survey with Viewport circled, and Viewport referenced onto a 24x36 sheet. The latter is what I imported into VW.

 

I imported the survey into a blank document, without changing any VW settings; including "Convert Objects to 2D and 3D". It came in as a viewport at 1"-20' scale. The viewport had no 3D information. The contours were just polylines. So I went to the Design Layer, selected the contours, and pasted them on a new layer at 1: 1 scale. When I selected a contour, it had no Z dimension in the OIP. That's why I had to "ncessarily" convert to 3D polys and add the Z dimension manually.

 

How did you import the survey with "contours correctly located"? Any idea why the 3D info was not included in my import? Am I missing something in the VW2013 Import DWG process? Is there another way to import a DWG file that will include 3D data? I don't have direct access to the surveyor.

[JHEarcht3]

3 hours ago, Benson Shaw said:

@JHEarcht3 if inclined, make a screenshot of the entire OIP of your site model. Just to indulge me.  I’m curious about options offered in v2013. 
 

-B

Here's a shot of the OIP with all the imported contours selected, before I made any changes. When I select a single contour, it has X & Y dims, but no Z elevation.

[JHEarcht3]

7 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

I think you have been able to move Vertices in the OIP as long as there has been an OIP. 

 

Screen shot from VW12.5 Windows seems to show the capability.

Since the imported contours had no elevation data, I selected each complete contour and gave it an elevation in the OIP.

 

I just tried your suggestion, and found a few vertices with Z elevation of 0, and one was 243', while all others are 485'. How could this happen randomly, when the whole contour was set at 485'? Resetting vertices on just one contour was laborious. Checking the whole site is out of the question.

Edited July 26, 2023 by JHEarcht3

[JHEarcht3]

5 hours ago, Katarina Ollikainen said:

As a contour has only one single z value: if there are a lot of vertices, go to top plan view, and convert the contour to a polygon (make a note of the correct elevation first). Then convert it back to a 3D poly and give it the correct elevation.

Modify > Convert > Convert to Polygons and then Modify > Convert > Convert to 3D Polys

I tried that. But when I converted the 3D contour to polygon, it became a group. When I converted back to 3D poly, it was a group of line segments instead of a contour. I didn't see a way to change it back to a 3D contour.

[Pat Stanford]

You said you moved a few vertices. I don't remember the 2013 settings, but in VW2023 (and I would assume 2013), there is a possibility to have things snap to the Layer Plane (which would normally be zero). So when you thought you were moving the points in 2D you were actually moving them in 3D.